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Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

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Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#71

Post by mc32 »

hawk_ wrote: post #32
cousin_it wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact is whenever quick upward mobility has been possible anywhere for a large number of people, it has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour. Which of these was responsible for China's rise from poverty?

It wasn't imported in case of China only technically. The rural to urban route was "imported" labor that mostly made city dwellers rich.

I don’t think that’s imported. It’s complicated by the hukou system, but all these people are Chinese, share the same culture (and to a great extent language).

In addition, these people made a calculus where staying in their ancestral homes meant certain poverty and moving to the city meant immediate increase in income as well as better prospects for the future. The drawback is/was poor working conditions, but I’m not sure they are worse than those back in their an ancestral homelands.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#73

Post by hdhjebebeb »

yathern wrote: post #46
hawk_ wrote: post #4

There was a short window of time (anthropological scale) in the western world where this was seemingly true. The American conservative propaganda latched onto it and tricked people into thinking it was true. The fact is whenever quick upward mobility has been possible anywhere for a large number of people, it has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour. It was someone else's hard work that w…

> has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour As far as I understand, this is actually a myth - at least the first two. It's a common cynical refrain that the current level of abundance would be impossible without slavery. There are many many places where there has been slavery throughout the years, and they have not ended up richer for it. The American South, where slavery was more prevalen…

> Northern Europe, not known for their abundance of slaves, is wealthier.

Northern Europe didn't import a lot of slaves but they sure as hell benefitted financially from the slave trade.

> Colonialism was not a huge success for England when you look at how much it cost. It was great for national pride and as a symbol of their "greatness" however.

The motivations for colonizing were primarily economic. Do you think the belgian congo was created to satisfy king leopold's fondness for cutting off hands too? The idea that colonialism is some kind of beneficent force that exists to civilize savages is painfully condescending

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#74

Post by sensanaty »

lr4444lr wrote: post #28

The most alarming thing to me in this report[1] is that a clear majority (> 60%) distrust technology and/or the government's ability to understand and manage it for our safety. That sort of sentiment is what can power through a destructive clamp down on big tech in the U.S. from ill-informed legislators. [1] https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/aatuss191/files/2020-0...

No one should be trusting big tech. As is they hold a ridiculous amount of power over the entire world, and that's only going to get worse and worse.

I also doubt most informed people trust governments either.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#75

Post by sokoloff »

newsclues wrote: post #68
sokoloff wrote: post #9

> The informed public – wealthier, more educated, and frequent consumers of news – remain far more trusting of every institution than the mass population. Is “informed public” an accepted term of art in social science research? Because if not, that seems like an incredibly (and gratuitously) biased label.

It seems to be a misnomer given by the (academic) elites. It’s problematic to label your followers as fools.

"Methodology: We first divided the population of respondents into two groups: 'Informed Public' and 'Knuckle Dragging Fuckwits'. We then compared..."

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#76

Post by tester34 »

wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

On the other hand I don't think you ever in the history had as wide opportunities as you do now

You can live in some shithole where 400$/month is easily enough to live without struggle, learn hard computer stuff and then work remotely for X times more than you needed to live.

How are you going to skew the odds if you aren't even trying?

Internet is huge advantage, you can not only have access to good information/knowledge/tutorials/blabla about something,

but also you can meet professionals with decades of experience in $something significantly easier

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#77

Post by 9wzYQbTYsAIc »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #69
wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

How much social mobility we talking? Statistically nobody goes from trailer park to billionare by working hard. You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments. edit: I'm only talking about the US

My understanding is that social mobility implies being able to climb the ladder from destitute to poor, poor to modestly wealthy, etc. and not referring to jumping to the 1% from destitution.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#78

Post by mikepurvis »

yathern wrote: post #46
hawk_ wrote: post #4

There was a short window of time (anthropological scale) in the western world where this was seemingly true. The American conservative propaganda latched onto it and tricked people into thinking it was true. The fact is whenever quick upward mobility has been possible anywhere for a large number of people, it has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour. It was someone else's hard work that w…

> has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour As far as I understand, this is actually a myth - at least the first two. It's a common cynical refrain that the current level of abundance would be impossible without slavery. There are many many places where there has been slavery throughout the years, and they have not ended up richer for it. The American South, where slavery was more prevalen…

> The American South, where slavery was more prevalent, is poorer than the North.

Does this analysis account for the fate of the former slaves and their descendants? I think part of the "wealth" of a society built on these things is leaving those effects as an externality. That doesn't really work when the people who were oppressed are freed and live among you.

European nations who strip mined the rest of the world never really had to account for this head-on, since the most visible exploitation was safely far away.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#79

Post by lifeformed »

yathern wrote: post #46
hawk_ wrote: post #4

There was a short window of time (anthropological scale) in the western world where this was seemingly true. The American conservative propaganda latched onto it and tricked people into thinking it was true. The fact is whenever quick upward mobility has been possible anywhere for a large number of people, it has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour. It was someone else's hard work that w…

> has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour As far as I understand, this is actually a myth - at least the first two. It's a common cynical refrain that the current level of abundance would be impossible without slavery. There are many many places where there has been slavery throughout the years, and they have not ended up richer for it. The American South, where slavery was more prevalen…

> The American South, where slavery was more prevalent, is poorer than the North.

Since the north is more rich than the south, that's supposed to be an example of how they weren't enriched from slavery? They both benefited tremendously from slavery, ending when they fought a devastating war over it. A slavery based economy does not transition well into a world where slavery is illegal. Not to mention that a lot of the poor people in the south are literally the slaves and their descendants.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#80

Post by hdhjebebeb »

api wrote: post #64
yathern wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour As far as I understand, this is actually a myth - at least the first two. It's a common cynical refrain that the current level of abundance would be impossible without slavery. There are many many places where there has been slavery throughout the years, and they have not ended up richer for it. The American South, where slavery was more prevalen…

Slavery engenders a culture of self-righteous laziness and entitlement in the slave owners and cynicism and internalized oppression (a “chip on their shoulder”) in the slaves. Both of these persist for many generations post slavery. We are still dealing with them in the form of everything from police violence to far right and far left performative extremist ideologies re-enacting the drama. I disagree with the people…

Pretty sure slavery is the definition of external oppression
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