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Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

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Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#791

Post by axguscbklp »

jfrunyon wrote: post #352
axguscbklp wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those links show that out of all Americans who vote in presidential elections, well above 90% vote for either a Democrat or a Republican. However, that does not mean that well above 90% of Americans are either Democrats or Republicans.

People lie. I'm not sure why you expect the media to sell to people's lies instead of selling to people's actions. PS Americans also overwhelmingly vote either Democrat or Republican in non-presidential elections, even down to the city council level.

What do you mean by "people's actions"? If you mean voting, well, Democrats and Republicans get about the same number of votes in presidential elections, which does not seem to justify your view that "left" media bias just reflects the political leaning of the average American.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#792

Post by systemvoltage »

tootie wrote: post #716
anm89 wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attacking the center is always the craziest narrative to me. It's saying: not only is it not okay to disagree with me and be on the other side, it's also not okay to not passionately agree with my exact side. The only right way to view these complex issues is to sign your name to join my party and then hold the party line, and everything else is unethical. I can't imagine a more obnoxious political viewpoint than tha…

Free speech as a sacred right means you have the absolute right to put yourself anywhere you want on the political spectrum, but that doesn't mean that one isn't right and the other side is wrong. I also think that "centrist" is a pretty meaningless term. I prefer to think of myself as more of an empiricist. I like policy that follows evidence. 90% of the time that's liberal policy. Roughly 0% of the time is that con…

This is how liberal policies of Oakland, California will decide how to educate their children [PDF]: https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11...

I am not convinced, at all - this is coming from a liberal who has voted for every democratic candidate since age 18.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#793

Post by local_dev »

x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #745
NeutralCrane wrote: post #725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One aspect of centrism is that it's generally people who either benefit from or want to maintain the status quo, without incurring the conflict that comes with stating so. This absolutely is not true, it's simply the straw man that polarized extremists use to lampoon centrism. It's based on two faulty assumptions: 1. Centrists believe the right course of action is "in the middle" of both extremes on all issues. Thi…

So in the issues of chattel slavery, Jim Crow, anti-lynching laws, Voting Rights what position would a centrist have taken that wouldn't have explicitly maintained white supremacy?

It's hard to assume a centrist's opinions on these things. Anecdotally, the centrists I know and talk to regularly are entirely aligned with the left on those issues.

Centrists don't pick the middle of every issue, they pick issues from both sides they agree with.

For example, a centrist may be FOR universal healthcare and AGAINST gun control. Or FOR lower taxes all around and FOR $15 min wage.

Taking each issue as it's own instead of aligning with one party or another on all issues is what a centrist is, to me.

Edit: I'm a self admitted centrist. Feel free to ask questions on my views if you'd like more info.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#794

Post by fighterpilot »

buzzert wrote: post #319
fartcannon wrote: post #36

There's a thing that happened with the Canada subreddit. It used to be kind of an interesting sub where youd get neat Canada-wide local stories (mostly Ontario) that were genrally pleasant. It was a nice place to visit after being inundated with American politics. Then, sometime in the early 10s and it gradually became very partisan and political. Which, to clarify, means it got substantially worse. It, like the comm…

This sounds like a Reddit-wide problem. I stopped going to Reddit years ago because of this.

That slippery slope is a byproduct of their subreddit social mechanic combined with a polarized political climate.

If the sub leans 60/40 one way, the minority group will see all their posts being downvoted, and gradually leave. As more leave, the downvote pressure on the remaining few gets more intense, and they leave too, until you're left with a veritable echo chamber.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#795

Post by aidenn0 »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #179
prof-dr-ir wrote: post #33

> "Until you can passionately make arguments for both sides," she says, "you don't understand the issue." I think this is the key quote. It should really be taboo to have an opinion without an understanding of how the other side argues. (Ironically the search for counterarguments would often strengthen my position because they would turn out to be quite weak. Nevertheless I think that the exercise is important.) I th…

> I think this is the key quote. It should really be taboo to have an opinion without an understanding of how the other side argues. It's a nice quote, but I don't find it accurate for all topics. Should I be trying to figure out how to make passionate arguments for the Q Conspiracy nuttiness? There are lots of antivaxx conspiracy theories that are pretty close to mainstream in parts of the US - should I be trying to…

I don't know that you should absolutely not have an opinion without understanding the other side, but if you don't spend at least a little bit of time understanding what motivates people to believe in conspiracy theories you will struggle to understand over half the population of the US.

Most of the main tenets of QAnon are recycled conspiracy theories that predate Q, which is why the "X% of people believe in QAnon" headlines that have been going around recently are so misleading.

Epistemic forensics is necessary for an awful lot of things people believe (true or false) given that for many things personal experience is insufficient to uncover the truth, and for any single truth, only a tiny fraction of the population is making direct observations at scale.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#796

Post by passivate »

myko wrote: post #622
passivate wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/russiagate-is-wmd-times-a-mill... https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/01/03/dear-cnn-...

Those links don't disprove anything I've said on this subject in this thread.

I disagree. They do for me, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. Have a nice day.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#797

Post by bobthechef »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #252
whimsicalism wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The vast majority of people on the planet are also Christian. Does that make "humanity" a Christian institution? The point is that Christianity has become so normalized to you that you don't recognize Christian celebration as religious. The fact that you incorrectly think that the "vast majority of people on the planet are also Christian" proves my point.

> The point is that Christianity has become so normalized to you that you don't recognize Christian celebration as religious. So? Doesn't that just serve to lessen its overall religiousness? I mean, Christmas's traditions are themselves derived from pagan solstice celebrations. Wouldn't that make it a pagan institution by your reasoning? Much like how Christians adopted pre-existing traditions and slapped a Jesus-sha…

> Christmas's traditions are themselves derived from pagan solstice celebrations

Well... [0]

> Wouldn't that make it a pagan institution by your reasoning?

Even when, say, a previously pagan practice is incorporated into Christianity, it is reinterpreted and given a new meaning, though probably in some way related to the original _by analogy_. This could be done to help the new converts better relate to the new faith and to preserve as much of the good in the previous culture as possible (in general, Catholicism gladly takes in whatever good and reconcilable there is in any culture[1]). In agreement with what you say, this does not make Christianity pagan.

Whether this is the same as the secularizing or commercializing or "consumerizing" of Christmas, I don't know. Maybe you could argue that this lumpenreligions are doing something analogous to what I just described, but this seems like a flaky comparison. Besides, secularism is a Christian heresy, so it's more like a heretical version of Christmas that's being practiced. The very idea of "secularism" is incomprehensible outside of Christianity (e.g., in Islam there is only Islam and the world of the infidels to be conquered and brought under the rule of Allah; the mosque is not an institution like the Church, just a building for prayer and thus no distinction, much less separation, between Church and State is thinkable).

[0] https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/refuting-th...

[1] You can give this ultimate justification in "logos spermatikos".

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#798

Post by reedjosh »

slowhand09 wrote: post #741
junon wrote: post #723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue lies is the false dichotomy of the two-party system. Centrists I interact with often seem to view the world as if the two party lines are a single dimension and that a rational 'compromise' position can be found somewhere in the middle. As a self-proclaimed centrist, it's weird to me that anyone who calls themselves a centrist thinks this way. For me, I see both sides as being correct sometimes but also b…

Regarding "I disagree with a lot from the left, usually because (these days) it's unscientific. I disagree with a lot from the right, usually because it's uninformed, religious, or inhumane - and also, unscientific." Have you ever considered that given the left dominates the media, they might imply or present thinking from the right as "uninformed, religious, or inhumane - and also, unscientific." I take the "How inf…

Downvoted... How dare you imply conservatives can be well informed and the media paints a bigoted picture. /s

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#799

Post by throwaway894345 »

sandyarmstrong wrote: post #299
throwaway894345 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Christmas and church settings don't indicate Christianity. Most secular Americans celebrate Christmas or attend weddings and funerals in Christian churches or officiated by Christian clergy. Indeed, for a very long time it was the norm to have one's own funeral or wedding at a church, officiated by Christian clergy, even if one was atheist or agnostic and even today it's quite common.

Ask people of a non-Christian faith if they agree. All the replies here saying Christmas isn't Christian seem to be from people with a Christian upbringing, even if they are atheist or "secular".

We’re not debating whether or not everyone of every faith celebrates secular Christmas, but whether or not celebrating secular Christmas is sufficient to identify a character as Christian. By your own admission (“All the replies here saying Christmas isn't Christian seem to be from people with a Christian upbringing, even if they are atheist or secular”), it is not sufficient.

Even if no one of a non-Christian background celebrated secular Christmas, “celebrating secular Christmas” still wouldn’t suffice to identify someone as Christian, but rather as either Christian or “from a Christian background”.

And of course lots of people from Jewish, Hindu, secular etc backgrounds also celebrate secular Christmas, as many have attested in this thread.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#800

Post by hermitdev »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #175
whimsicalism wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Christmas doesn’t signify religion in America Yes it does...

Eh, not really. Christmas may have been a product of Christianity (hijacking a pagan holiday...), but it has long since become just a western culture tradition with no particular religious significance for a lot of people. Most Christmas movies don't even mention Christ.

> Most Christmas movies don't even mention Christ.

Like "Die Hard" ;).

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