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Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

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Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And how can 4 "centrist" sources be "very biased"? Isn't it literally the opposite? No, centrism isn’t the opposite of bias. Centrism is a position toward which there can bias of any strength. Position of bias on a left/right (or any other ideological) axis and strength of bias or two orthogonal, continuous dimensions.

In theory, perhaps. But in practice "centrist" news sources are far more likely to present multiple points of view -- e.g. a left and right one -- while "left" and "right" news sources generally do not. But at a deeper level, centrism isn't really an ideology at all, in the way the left and right can be. You can be a hard-core leftist or you can be a hard-core conservative, but the idea of a "hard-core centrist" does…

> But in practice "centrist" news sources are far more likely to present multiple points of view

No, in practice less strongly biased sources are more likely to present multiple points of view. Now, the same amount of variation can seem more diverse when you tend to bucket things into “left/right” binary categories, if the center of variation is near the point where you draw the line between buckets.

But that's an artifact of forcing things into binary buckets making a centrist outlet providing center-left to center-right views look more diverse than a right-wing publication providing center-right to far-right views.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fox New's actual news coverage is mostly truthful. But a huge amount of their airtime is opinion pieces and media personalities who spout BS all day. Tucker Carlson is probably the most notorious. Plus they have Republican politicians calling in and showing up constantly, and they're allowed to say whatever they want.

Am I the only one who feels Tucker Carlson is so popular because he (a lot like Donald Trump) was willing to challenge the false idols of the Republican establishment (e.g. we need to be at war in Afghanistan/Iraq, the free market isn't always the best especially if it leads to outsourcing and offshoring, etc.) Might just be me. I dislike 90% of fox news but I listen to Carlson sometimes and never find him to be horr…

I've seen a few clips, they have been pretty bad but with kernel of truths that make it hard to make substantive arguments against whatever he is ranting on. I personally think he's a big stain on news media, even while agreeing with a few points here/there there.

For what it's worth, I've only watched in order to try and understand other people's viewpoints.

More specifically, I think he's terrible because he has mastered the ability to tease out the base instincts of people with his messaging, which makes it hard to either agree or disagree with his statements with logic. He can point to some kernels of truth, and you are left with people saying things like "that's just dogwhistling" when attacking his viewpoints. In other words, he riles up, doesn't cause people to think critically, and overall lowers the level of discourse out there.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#713

I don't understand this fetishism with centrism and all opinions being treated equally, and that having made up your mind on an issue is necessarily wrong. When it comes to an issue like, say, climate change, I spent years reading the blogosphere, reading blogs like WUWT and whatever Judith Curry would come up with, and then the rebuttals, sometimes waiting years for the science to come out. For any issue around clim…

>...I don't understand this fetishism with centrism and all opinions being treated equally,

Let's be honest here, the direction of this thread, and people most enthused about the linked article are people who are sympathetic to right-wing ideologies. Currently, because of demographic trends, the right-wing is scared that their ideas will be run out of the marketplace of ideas. The only way to prevent that is to 1. Embrace enlightened centrism, and 2. Complain that their opinions aren't being treated "equally".

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, sure, but why are we talking about Fox specifically? CNN, MSNBC, etc. are just as bad. I find this ironic since this thread is about how bias isn't necessarily about outright falsehoods, but story selection and what is not said :)

Fox news personalities frequently allow Trump and his allies airtime where they lie about losing the election to Biden. I don't know how you get any less truthful than that

Stacey Abrams lied about being cheated out of the Georgia gubernatorial election and then the most recent Democrat candidate for President at the time kept up the lie: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/hillary-clinton-says-stacey-a...

And yet, Hillary Clinton (who made her own claims that Russia had helped Trump steal the Presidential election from her) was a guest on mainstream news programs over and over.

Do you apply the same standards to Hillary Clinton that you apply to Trump?

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#715
post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit tough to understand how you reconcile this position with your original paragraph. >Attacking the center is always the craziest narrative to me. It's saying: not only is it not okay to disagree with me and be on the other side, it's also not okay to not passionately agree with my exact side. The only right way to view these complex issues is to sign your name to join my party and then hold the party line, a…

What's hard to understand? Picture a spectrum with three points labeled "left", "center", and "right" respectively. Each point is a "position", none of them are neutral (because they all exist on the spectrum).

Because the center has to be qualitatively different from the others in order to escape the cycle of critique presented in the original argument.

Otherwise, why is critique of the center different from attacking the left or the right? Why would attacking the center be the "craziest narrative"?

The OP's post has a hidden premise, otherwise it does not lead to his conclusion.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#716
post #346

The elephant in the room is that this sort of enlightened centrism, while it sounds noble, rests on several ill-formed assumptions. The first is that, by reading from both sides, they’ll balance and you’ll arrive at an enlightened center. This assumes the Overton Window is balanced, stationary, and not tilted to one side or the other. You’re beholden to the good judgement of each side to not move themselves further l…

Attacking the center is always the craziest narrative to me. It's saying: not only is it not okay to disagree with me and be on the other side, it's also not okay to not passionately agree with my exact side. The only right way to view these complex issues is to sign your name to join my party and then hold the party line, and everything else is unethical. I can't imagine a more obnoxious political viewpoint than tha…

Free speech as a sacred right means you have the absolute right to put yourself anywhere you want on the political spectrum, but that doesn't mean that one isn't right and the other side is wrong. I also think that "centrist" is a pretty meaningless term. I prefer to think of myself as more of an empiricist. I like policy that follows evidence. 90% of the time that's liberal policy. Roughly 0% of the time is that conservative policy. There's some rallying cries like $15 min wage or forgiving student loan debt that seem like foolish hills to die on, but universal healthcare, equal rights, voting rights, progressive taxation and aggressive action on climate are so blindingly obvious that anyone who questions them is wrong in my book. You have right to be wrong, but you're wrong. Saying that you oppose the poles because they are "cesspools" strongly implies you don't like the loudest proponents and aren't considering the validity of their policy.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I'm reminded of the woman who had survived the Holocaust and was asked to be interviewed — where they would also bring on a Holocaust denier ... you know, for balance. Thankfully, she declined. But the point is of course: here we are.

Context aside, that sounds like it would have been a powerful film. A denier face to face with an eyewitness, presumably with the eyewitness prepared with all of the innumerable pieces of indisputable evidence. Talk about losing, that's losing.

I've read and even said a lot of uncomfortable things on the internet, but seeing someone lament the loss of not pitting a holocaust survivor with a denier probably takes the cake.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Economist is one of the least biased sources of news, that routinely publishes letters, opeds and articles contradicting the sated editorial agenda. Very few other news sources actually do that. They're not perfect, but it sure beats NYT. If you want the optimal news coverage without needing to read a million sources - The Economist, Financial Times, WSJ and The Guardian.

+1. I sometimes regret subscribing to Financial Times, but their bias is pretty easy to identify and accept/reject once you understand it. I counterbalance it with Jacobian (far-left/communist - choose your adjective - news). There's an adage in math modeling/statistics: all models are wrong, but some are useful. Here, all newspapers are biased, but some are useful.

Jacobin, not Jacobian :)

Unless there is some link between calculus and socialism that I have yet to discover

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#719

There's a thing that happened with the Canada subreddit. It used to be kind of an interesting sub where youd get neat Canada-wide local stories (mostly Ontario) that were genrally pleasant. It was a nice place to visit after being inundated with American politics. Then, sometime in the early 10s and it gradually became very partisan and political. Which, to clarify, means it got substantially worse. It, like the comm…

It's interesting to see how you've characterized what happened in r/canada. I think it is itself an example of polarization. r/canada used to be great, as you said, but it didn't become polarized in a right vs. left manner. The moderators were self-admitted alt/far-right people who were pushing a particular agenda. When the country as a whole votes left at a consistent 65-70%, then r/canada simply no longer represent…

> Then, sometime in the early 10s and it gradually became very partisan and political. Which, to clarify, means it got substantially worse.

I just checked the top posts for last week and it looks pretty... non-partisan? Certainly better than something /r/all.

https://old.reddit.com/r/canada/top/?t=week

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#720
post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> CNN isn't biased to the liberal or conservative viewpoint, it is biased towards clicks and views. Bullshit. CNN is in the tank for the corporate wing of the Democratic party. > A lot of the blame for trump gaining acceptance as a viable voting option belongs to CNN for *uncritically promoting* him and giving him coverage. Absolute bullshit. You believe CNN was pro-Trump in 2015/2016? Every single story/show was abo…

> Bullshit. CNN is in the tank for the corporate wing of the Democratic party. Bullshit. CNN repeatedly focused on trump to the detriment of other candidates because he generated clicks and views. > Absolute bullshit. You believe CNN was pro-Trump in 2015/2016? Every single story/show was about how terrible he is. It's hard to report on him without it being obvious how terrible he is. Most of the reporting in 2015/16…

Even NPR admits the coverage was more negative. And no, not more negative because he was worse, more negative in an unfair way: https://www.npr.org/2017/10/02/555092743/study-news-coverage...
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