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Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

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Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#451

Post by TMWNN »

myko wrote: post #309
mrkstu wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh- voted against Trump twice. The fact of the matter is the Ratcliffe Letter [0] shows that President Obama was given an briefing well before the Steele Dossier was leaked to the media that the Russians' had picked up intelligence that exactly that kind of fake evidence would be planted by the Clinton campaign. I really don't believe in a coincidence that big and unless Steele was simultaneously a Russian and Clin…

> fake evidence would be planted by the Clinton campaign. Again, this never happened. First of all, the Steele Dossier was raw intelligence, not meant to be taken as fact. It was paid for initially by Republicans, not HRC's campaign, so pinning it on her is disingenuous. Also, there were clear links between the trump campaign and Russia, including some that led to arrests of his folks and some that should have (Jr's…

>Also, there were clear links between the trump campaign and Russia, including some that led to arrests of his folks

Name one Trump person who was arrested (let alone convicted) for something actually, directly related to Russiagate.

Papadopoulos: Indicted for making a false statement to FBI.

Manafort and Gates: Indicted for not registering as foreign agents of Ukraine (which, you might have noticed, is sort of an enemy of Russia right now)

Flynn: Indicted for making a false statement to FBI. (Forced by lack of legal fees into pleading guilty, which later caused problems when the government tried to drop charges.)

Pinedo (Who? Exactly): Indicted for identity fraud.

van der Zwaan: Indicted for making false statements (and not an American, anyway).

Cohen: Indicted for making false statements.

Stone: Indicted for making false statements and witness tampering.

Then we have people like Carter Page, whose name was raked over the coals for years because a FBI lawyer intentionally altered evidence (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/09/us/politics/fbi-ig-report...>) showing that far from being a Russian asset, Page had for years briefed the CIA every time he met with suspicious Russians. (Got to love how the Times describes said altering evidence as a "serious error".) You want an actual Russiagate-related indictment and guilty plea? Kevin Clinesmith, said FBI lawyer, is your man.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#452

Post by Moodles »

mariodiana wrote: post #446
Moodles wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, sure, but why are we talking about Fox specifically? CNN, MSNBC, etc. are just as bad. I find this ironic since this thread is about how bias isn't necessarily about outright falsehoods, but story selection and what is not said :)

Jonathan Haidt (who is mentioned in the article) did a study years ago. He separated a group of people into conservatives and liberals and then gave them a questionnaire on politics. Then he got a second group, separated them, and gave them the same questionnaire. Only he asked the second group of liberals and conservatives to answer the questionnaire the way they imagined the other side would. What he found was that…

Yeah, that doesn't surprise me at all actually. I'm sure both side demonize the other to some extent, and it's our natural reaction to look at them both as equally bad like we're disciplining two siblings or something, but it really seems that right now the left is more melodramatic in the demonization than the right. In my personal experience, quite a few people I've met seem to think if you disagree with them, you must be full of hate, racist, sexist, dumb, a gun slinging Christian, etc.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#453

Post by rootusrootus »

whimsicalism wrote: post #247
rootusrootus wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ceremonial going out for chinese food Wait, what, this is a thing? I'd never heard of that. Like, only the Jews would do it? Or more generally it's common for everyone to go out for Chinese food on Christmas? That has to be regional, if it's true. Kinda funny either way.

Oh yes, it is definitely a thing - and really only a jewish thing that I know of. I grew up in the mid-atlantic, but it is definitely also a thing in NYC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_American_Chinese_restau...

That is fascinating, thanks for sharing it. I hadn't heard of it, but then again, I don't have any interaction (that I am aware of, at least) with Jews -- everyone in my circle is a Christian or impersonates one.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#454

Post by anm89 »

TrispusAttucks wrote: post #401
anm89 wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attacking the center is always the craziest narrative to me. It's saying: not only is it not okay to disagree with me and be on the other side, it's also not okay to not passionately agree with my exact side. The only right way to view these complex issues is to sign your name to join my party and then hold the party line, and everything else is unethical. I can't imagine a more obnoxious political viewpoint than tha…

Agreed. The center is the glue the holds the populace in check. We need these people. Once the center is eroded things will not go well.

Here's an interesting article from a great blog that tries to use a game theory perspective to quantify your belief and makes a really interesting argument in agreement with you:

https://www.epsilontheory.com/things-fall-apart-pt-1/

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#455

Post by myko »

TMWNN wrote: post #451
myko wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fake evidence would be planted by the Clinton campaign. Again, this never happened. First of all, the Steele Dossier was raw intelligence, not meant to be taken as fact. It was paid for initially by Republicans, not HRC's campaign, so pinning it on her is disingenuous. Also, there were clear links between the trump campaign and Russia, including some that led to arrests of his folks and some that should have (Jr's…

>Also, there were clear links between the trump campaign and Russia, including some that led to arrests of his folks Name one Trump person who was arrested (let alone convicted) for something actually, directly related to Russiagate. Papadopoulos: Indicted for making a false statement to FBI. Manafort and Gates: Indicted for not registering as foreign agents of Ukraine (which, you might have noticed, is sort of an en…

- Roger Stone (he lied about his work with Guccifier 2.0, and wikileaks which was working as an arm of the Russian government)

- Paul Manafort (his work in Ukraine was done on behalf of Russia - I mean seriously read about the shit he did: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/apr/05/ex-trump-aid... - also linked with wikileaks, but not in the US election context afaik). And where did the former leader of Ukraine, Yanukovych, who Manafort propped up flee to when the shit he and Manafort did together came out?

- We know Jr attempted to get the Russian governments help and had a meeting in trump tower about it, that his dad helped him lie about (obstructing justice in the process)

Done

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#456

Post by epage »

bpodgursky wrote: post #103
throwaway894345 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do the same thing, and I've noticed that this "they don't present the other side" thing is getting worse with time. I recently read [this HuffPo article][0] about how only 1% of American film characters are identifiably Muslim ; however, nowhere in the article does it even mention the share of Americans who are Muslim, nor the share of movie characters that are of other religions. These things are certainly obvious…

Interestingly Mormons are 2% of the US population (twice the Muslim %), and I can't think of a single openly Mormon character in any TV show I've ever seen.

The Expanse had a generation ship for Mormons and a main character has a conversation with a Mormon on a transport ship.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#457

Post by pmoriarty »

Moodles wrote: post #399
adzm wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many. httpss://www.cnn.com/2018/07/27/politics/donald-trump-economy-trade-gdp-growth-credit/index.html

Did you read that article? I mean, even that article has the multiple bitchy comments thrown in. I would quote, but honestly it would be every other paragraph. But yes, the headline is generally positive I guess. Now, could we find a similar article for Biden in Fox over the next 4 years? I would guess probably. Anyways it's kind of pointless to argue what the "opposite" of Fox is as it's really ill-defined. i think…

"Now, could we find a similar article for Biden in Fox over the next 4 years? I would guess probably."

Biden's not the opposite of Trump either. Biden pleases some conservatives, which is why he got the nomination over Sanders, so that he'd stand a chance of winning over "undecided" (ie. right wing, but not extreme right wing) voters in battleground states. Many neocons are also fans of Biden, so I wouldn't be at all surprised to find support of him on FOX.

Now I'd be surprised to find any positive coverage of Sanders on FOX.. not to mention people who are really on the left like Noam Chomsky.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#458

Post by mariodiana »

echelon wrote: post #449
mariodiana wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard people characterize cable news as kayfabe —the handbook for professional wrestling. Cable news is entertainment, and the same way the WWF was eventually pressured into changing their name to the WWE, we have to hope one day CNN and Fox News (along with MSNBC, etc.) will change their monikers.

> WWF was eventually pressured into changing their name to the WWE There was no pressuring over intent. The World Wildlife Fund owned the rights to WWF and sued. https://www.cnet.com/news/wrestling-loses-wwf-to-wildlife

I'm aware of that, but I don't think that changes things much. They chose to call it "entertainment," when they could have called it any number of things. But at the time they had been under increasing criticism of the matches being fixed, etc.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#459

Post by teddyh »

reedjosh wrote: post #393
tptacek wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't even have to litigate whether Fox News airtime is distinctively malignant if we just acknowledge that all 24/7 cable news channels are bad. They kind of have to be, just by the nature of how they compete and what they have to work with in both audiences and source material. Just don't get your news from the TV.

And they're all funded by ads. Between the need to access government figures for interview, and their funding sources, how could you ever expect straight forward reporting? If you aren't paying for your media sources, you're the product.

> If you aren't paying for your media sources, you're the product.

Even if you are paying, you can still be the product, as long as media can make even more money out of it. I mean, why wouldn’t they? More money is more money.

Re: Some Americans are breaking out of political echo chambers

#460

Post by sudosysgen »

JAlexoid wrote: post #383
sudosysgen wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it is deeply ideological. But if we're being honest, everything is. The Economist is fine to read as long as you really deeply understand it's ideology.

The Economist doesn't hide their ideology and advocacy. Unlike many "well renowned sources" (ahem... NYT)

What would you think the ideology of the Economist is and where in their website do you get that from? Just asking for the sake of argument.
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