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Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

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Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#631

Post by refulgentis »

refulgentis wrote: post #630
XorNot wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Astra-Zeneca is not an mRNA vaccine. The mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) have both shown excellent (though in some cases reduced) efficacy against all strains [1], and the protein regions they target have not shown substantial alteration against antibody binding affinity (fun fact: this is "easy" to test - you give people the vaccine, isolate the antibodies in their blood, then test them against COVID in a petridi…

You gish gallop'd me through the floor by answering, yet again, as if I claimed something I hadn't. You should be ashamed for yourself, the very intent you had to better inform people was defeated by you. You know most of the world isn't getting mRNA vaccines, and even if we quibble over 'most', it has nothing to do with your original nonsense, that somehow we know exactly when boosters for mRNA will be needed.

Don't be so obvious when you're doing vote manipulation, my posts end up at -1 in this thread, and somehow, 2 days later, this post ends up at -1 within 2 minutes of being posted.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#632

Post by refulgentis »

harry8 wrote: post #509
refulgentis wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Astra-Zeneca has been shown to be repeatedly poor against variants, a big story in the UK right now is whether the increase in cases and sense of being behind the US is due to gov't overly committing to a shoddy vaccine, or if it's variants burning through unvaccinated populations. The picture isn't nearly as rosey as OP makes it sound, unfortunately: sort of a gish gallop about knowing the rate at which we can…

I meant some actual links to some actual data...

I don't know why I have to also do the Googling of the terms you mentioned as well as telling you what the results say.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#633

Post by harry8 »

refulgentis wrote: post #632
harry8 wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant some actual links to some actual data...

I don't know why I have to also do the Googling of the terms you mentioned as well as telling you what the results say.

You don't have to do anything at all that might assist anyone else. But without support it's just like "your opinion, man." ;-) And difficult for anyone to act on in any meaningful way.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#634

Post by skinkestek »

bmn__ wrote: post #562
skinkestek wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I defend almost all religions, just not mine. Removing religion completely has been tried in a larger scale experiment in the Soviet Union and the results were very much worse than the most barbaric religions. When arguing about religion one shouldn't forget that they have a number of good attributes as well. Otherwise you are just fighting against a straw man and then it is no wonder why you win every single time :…

> Removing religion completely has been tried in a larger scale experiment in the Soviet Union and the results were very much worse than the most barbaric religions. What am I supposed to say here? "Good thing I'm not Stalin"? Just because he's against religion, too, does not mean I want to use his methods. > When arguing about religion one shouldn't forget that they have a number of good attributes as well. I've hea…

> What am I supposed to say here? "Good thing I'm not Stalin"? Just because he's against religion, too, does not mean I want to use his methods.

Maybe you should then extend the same courtesy to us who have religions too then? After all most of us aren't Spanish inquisitors.

> Mentally substitute the monks for hypothetical missionaries adhering to Voltaire/Smith/Kant &c., we could imagine the result is similar, just without the gods-and-religion business.

Yeah and if cats were dogs they would bark.

Mentally substitute Nelson Mandela with Hitler and South Africa wouldn't have a Nobel prize winner.

> I didn't say

No, but you said:

> Just because we managed to declaw and tame one (values of Enlightenment supplanting values of Christianity)

I'm pointing out that the peace came with Christianity.

There was no need to "declaw" Christianity.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#635

Post by skinkestek »

bmn__ wrote: post #560
tekknik wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because religions are still dangerous animals With all but one preaching peace, and not hate, please explain.

There is a vast gulf between what is preached and what adherents do or don't do. Knowing human nature, I think all religions have suffered abuse in the form of having peace on paper, but inciting hate through opportunists.

And as I mentioned to you earlier: non-religious have been even (and is) even worse.

Just because you aren't evil doesn't mean the rest of us will happily accept that you can argue from a position where everything bad a religious person said or did is held against us while simultaneously nothing bad that non-religious people did can be held against you.

Choose one option.

I know this is hard but this isn't young atheists debate club.

We are real humans and some of us have experienced too much good to just let you or others try to tear it apart.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#636

Post by daddylongstroke »

TomSwirly wrote: post #505
pciexpgpu wrote: post #18

This is good. Now states are combating such hesitancy by drawing lottery for vaccinated folks. Like, having this magic, absolutely mind boggling potion that prevents serious illness and death *isn't* already the lottery win of our lifetime?? People in India and elsewhere are dying because of lack of vaccines and here we have educated, first world countries struggle to get their citizens vaccinated. Unfortunately sham…

> Unfortunately shaming such people will only push them further into antivax territory. We welcome any better suggestions. Have you ever tried to have a respectful, adult discussion based on facts with antivaxers?

At least once a week, I have an adult discussion based on facts and lived truths with antivaxers, many of whom are registered nurses in the US. Why are they labeled antivaxers by society (that's usually my first question). The response generally comes down to the greater society not understanding the negative health outcomes from the routine vaccinations nursing and other hospital staff have to undergo in the US. I'll tell you what a virologist at the Cleveland Clinic told one of these RNs who cannot get the flu or other vaccines anymore, as they now threaten her life (and that of her family's). "First, you are not crazy. You are exactly the type of patient I see day in and day out: A hospital staff member, being treated by non-virology MDs as a nut case (in many cases being dropped by the doctor's office due to lack of adherence to treatment), because you accused the vaccines you take of causing your arteritis or vasculitis. Well, you're correct. You're potentially genetically predisposed, like a substantial chunk of our population, to severely increased risk of vasculitis and ultimately death by organ failure or aneurysm, by receiving any vaccine on a regular basis. You should not get a vaccine, and nobody in your family should receive regular vaccines. Yes, your completely incurable vasculitis is likely caused by the flu vaccines you've been mandated to receive year in and year out by your employer. No, the flu vaccine is not really effective at all when you look closely at the data, especially in the population it purports to be targeting specifically (the old)."

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#637

Post by CRConrad »

ghoward wrote: post #477
abenga wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wrinkles my brain that someone would believe this. Surgeons wear masks for hours, sometimes dozens, while performing operations that require an insane level of concentration and dexterity. They are not harmed because of this. You have just chosen to believe some idiotic conspiracy theory and are grasping at some vaguely plausible objection to continue holding that belief.

They do that in the environment that the masks are designed for.

So masks somehow magically concentrate CO2 more than any other gas only outside of operating theaters? Or is this selective gas concentration perfectly normal, and the magic is that it doesn't happen in operating theaters?

The "environment that the masks are designed for" is the same Euclidean 3D space containing the same air as all other environments.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#638

Post by raindropm »

dvt wrote: post #26
weatherlight wrote: post #5

I cant +1 this enough. Thank you, Linus for standing up to the wealth of misinformation out there and holding his ground.

> Thank you, Linus for standing up to the wealth of misinformation out there and holding his ground. Being a pompous ass might feel good, especially when you think you are (or you actually are) smarter than your opponent, but it won't sway anyone. In fact, it does quite the opposite. If you're seriously trying to convince someone they're wrong, you need to be kind, be patient, and have a calm, productive discussion -…

He actually explain things in details after bashing him, so yeah,.. also it's Linus we're talking about, people used to his direct-and-borderline-rude style already anyway.

I agree that the ideal approach is talking like grown-up, educated people and not just shouting in face, but it also depends on who're you talking to and how firm their belief in something are, too. Some require a good beating with virtual baseball bat a few times for them to start listen.. :p

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#639

Post by aantix »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #472
aantix wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Linus starts out with "Please keep your insane" - the reader/original poster will enter a defensive mode. Imagine that internal monologue - "Am I insane? I'm smart? I'm an analytic person. Why is he calling me insane? HE'S the insane one!" Because Linus thinks this is a logical fight. But it's not. Information is _not_ all that's needed to be persuaded. And if he really care about the vax effort, his efforts wou…

> When Linus starts out with "Please keep your insane" - the reader/original poster will enter a defensive mode You're assuming the goal is convincing the original poster. Given that goal, you are correct. The counterargument: OP doesn't matter. Their effect on third parties is key. Reasonably engaging with OP validates their thinking. (Which, to reiterate, is nonsense.) Yes– calm, patient rhetoric has a higher chanc…

Why would you assume belittling and yelling would silence the OP?

It only stands to redirect the effort. They may stop posting on the list, but Linus has done none of the hard work of persuasion, so they will post elsewhere.

Again, he does the movement zero favors. All the privilege in the world to bring someone over, and he pisses it away.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#640

Post by aantix »

randomNumber7 wrote: post #619
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When Linus starts out with "Please keep your insane" - the reader/original poster will enter a defensive mode You're assuming the goal is convincing the original poster. Given that goal, you are correct. The counterargument: OP doesn't matter. Their effect on third parties is key. Reasonably engaging with OP validates their thinking. (Which, to reiterate, is nonsense.) Yes– calm, patient rhetoric has a higher chanc…

> We're...well, we're bastards. To us, OP is beyond saving. What matters is the people around her. Upvoting wasn't enough. Linus reaction is perfect. Even if it was just driven by emotions I completely understand it.

The OP will post elsewhere. He gets virtual high fives from his crew and done nothing for the movement.
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