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Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

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Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#471

Post by rorykoehler »

ghoward wrote: post #465
rorykoehler wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A mask isn’t going to hurt you if it doesn’t work. Honestly my 3 year old displays more logic in his thought than this. And before you say it no the virus won’t appear on the mask anymore more so than it would enter your mouth and lungs if the mask wasn’t on.

Does heightened levels of carbon dioxide hurt? Everything we know about heightened levels of carbon dioxide in buildings says, "Yes." Why would masks be any different?

Heightened levels of CO2 are negligible in a mask. You aren't supposed to wear a mask 24/7. You wear a mask a strategic times like when you are inside, shopping or in a crowd. If you are outside away from people or crowds you don't need to wear a mask. Besides it's obvious that wearing a mask protects others. All you need to do is watch a video of a sneeze with and without a mask on to figure that out.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#472

Post by JumpCrisscross »

aantix wrote: post #469
m0llusk wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would need to consult with the original poster to be certain of that. What Linus posted included important facts such as the large number of lives saved and the shared nature of viral immunity. You are reacting primarily to tone as if health in a social context is purely about good feelings.

When Linus starts out with "Please keep your insane" - the reader/original poster will enter a defensive mode. Imagine that internal monologue - "Am I insane? I'm smart? I'm an analytic person. Why is he calling me insane? HE'S the insane one!" Because Linus thinks this is a logical fight. But it's not. Information is _not_ all that's needed to be persuaded. And if he really care about the vax effort, his efforts wou…

> When Linus starts out with "Please keep your insane" - the reader/original poster will enter a defensive mode

You're assuming the goal is convincing the original poster. Given that goal, you are correct.

The counterargument: OP doesn't matter. Their effect on third parties is key. Reasonably engaging with OP validates their thinking. (Which, to reiterate, is nonsense.) Yes– calm, patient rhetoric has a higher chance of succeeding with them. But it's also likely to leave bystanders neutral or open to OP's arguments. Excoriating OP guarantees they'll hate you. But it increases the chance that third parties get the message.

You're a good soul. You care about OP. We're...well, we're bastards. To us, OP is beyond saving. What matters is the people around her. The people on the internet, who might passively read her drivel and believe it and skip vaccination. There are more of them than there are her, and they–unlike her–didn't choose to be in their position.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#473

Post by ikt »

tekknik wrote: post #442
542458 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question, how is a vaccine passport any different from a proof of immunization (one common form being the International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis), which is standard fare for travelling to/from many countries already? We’ve been using these to combat the spread of diseases like yellow fever for years.

Because we don’t force people to get all vaccines to travel. Requiring a vaccine passport for the covid vaccine forces people to get it, which is the real reason people are advocating for it.

Yes we do? We've had them for ages:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_requirements_for_i...

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#475

Post by berkes »

derekp7 wrote: post #352
avz wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] lots of people see what looks like the "story changing", and distrust anything coming out of their government, [...]. Changing and updating our beliefs as evidence comes in is a fundamental ability that underlies numerous activities from scientific research to debugging software to driving on a congested road network. Why is it a problem for public health officials to update and change policy as we learn more…

The problem is that the a large chunk of the population aren't scientist so they don't understand the principles of the scientific method. And they aren't software developers, they don't have the mindset for it. And have you seen the way many people drive? There is a reason why the term "defensive driving" was coined.

You don't need to be a scientist to acknowledge that knowledge evolves.

You don't even need to follow a 'scientific method' for that.

The ability to embrace uncertainty is hard to learn, but one that we all should strive for. One that should be praised and lauded.

A politician, leader or CEO making a bad decision on a wrong premis, and publicly acknowledges the mistake (and learns from it), is now often end-of-career. This is toxic. Because such mistakes are a fact of life and the best teacher.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#476

Post by panny »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #467
panny wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>exceedingly rare reaction In my personal case, it's 1 in 8 vaxxed that I know personally with bad reaction and accompanying devastating financial consequences. I also don't really consider the reported thousands dead, tens of thousands of ER visits, and thousands more hospitalized and/or permanently disabled as exceedingly rare. These are CDC numbers from the VAERS database, https://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfie…

Well. "medalerts.org" is the "National Vaccine Information Center", a notorious source of vaccine misinformation, pushing the thoroughly discredited theory that vaccines cause autism, and lately -- surprise -- being widely criticized as one of the worst pushers of Covid-19 misinformation. A substantial amount of their funding comes from Joseph Mercola, which, well, yikes. (Why I say "yikes" is left as an exercise for…

>a notorious source of vaccine misinformation

Are you suggesting their information isn't the same as the CDC? Have any proof of it?

>But VAERS (the "Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System") is from the CDC, right? Great! Except that it's an open database -- anyone can submit a report and there is no verification.

Again, do you have any proof that there is a conspiracy to fill the VAERS database with fake data about covid vaccines? Or is this all just a theory of yours?

There's no evidence that what you are saying is true. There is a hospital bill that has to be paid, due to a covid vaccination in my family. That's hard evidence for me that covid vaccines are not safe.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#477

Post by ghoward »

abenga wrote: post #470
ghoward wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does heightened levels of carbon dioxide hurt? Everything we know about heightened levels of carbon dioxide in buildings says, "Yes." Why would masks be any different?

It wrinkles my brain that someone would believe this. Surgeons wear masks for hours, sometimes dozens, while performing operations that require an insane level of concentration and dexterity. They are not harmed because of this. You have just chosen to believe some idiotic conspiracy theory and are grasping at some vaguely plausible objection to continue holding that belief.

They do that in the environment that the masks are designed for.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#478

Post by berkes »

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #115

There are a range of anti-vaccine opinions from idiotic (the example Linus quotes) to more reasonable. The way this issue has been handled is emblematic of the way many such political issues are handled: fringe views are promoted and "debunked" while more reasonable views that go against mainstream narratives are ignored. This is amplified by various high profile personalities in the media who shape the views people…

Do you have any examples of such 'reasonable views' that are ignored?

Because I don't. I do see a lot of reasonable objections making headlines or having a large impact. E.g. side effects halting entire campaigns for weeks, or large articles highlighting the dowsides of various vaccines, debates on particle sizes and fluid dynamics on national TV and so on.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#479

Post by ghoward »

rorykoehler wrote: post #471
ghoward wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does heightened levels of carbon dioxide hurt? Everything we know about heightened levels of carbon dioxide in buildings says, "Yes." Why would masks be any different?

Heightened levels of CO2 are negligible in a mask. You aren't supposed to wear a mask 24/7. You wear a mask a strategic times like when you are inside, shopping or in a crowd. If you are outside away from people or crowds you don't need to wear a mask. Besides it's obvious that wearing a mask protects others. All you need to do is watch a video of a sneeze with and without a mask on to figure that out.

There's a lot of evidence that masks protect against bacteria, but the jury's still out for viruses. Also, you are correct that people should be strategic, but a lot of people aren't, and they are not changing their masks regularly as they should be.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#480

Post by kaba0 »

nsonha wrote: post #427
kaba0 wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but then he proceed to say that it does exactly that to fight foreign proteins No he doesn’t say that and is not true. mRNAs are “commands”. They encode proteins — each triplet (of nucleotides) on it will translate to one protein building block. They are semi-stable and are actively destroyed in the cell so they can only produce a few protein molecules. So injecting mRNA will give a temporary command to the cells t…

This is what he said and he could be wrong but I'm not making up anything > that the mRNA vaccines do is to add a dose their own specialized sequence that then makes your normal cell machinery generate that spike protein so that your body learns how to recognize it... your body now knows how to recognize and fight off a new foreign protein So what happens if some faulty proteins are created from this process, any cha…

What Linus writes is accurate, you may have misunderstood him. A dose of mRNA is transported to a few cells, and these cells temporarily gets the command to create spike proteins. These proteins will be transported outside your body and be recognized by the immune system. There is no need to constantly create them as the immune system can learn from this alone.

And it is temporary because mRNA is constantly degrading — it is a must otherwise a cell would have no way to stop manufacturing a protein after giving out a command.

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