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Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

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Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#251

Post by logicslave »

doctor_eval wrote: post #245

Managers are getting a pretty bad rap in these threads, and maybe (or maybe not) in BigCo’s that’s reasonable, but I run a tiny shop and I’ve asked my team to come to the office as often as possible, despite the fact that half of us have been working together for years - and we get on just fine online. The reason is that the other half of the team haven’t got this experience; they are young and relatively inexperienc…

Right, so you want whats best for you and your profitability, with no consideration of the expense to the employee.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#252

Post by [deleted] »

strgrd wrote: post #10
xvector wrote: post #3

Can’t imagine not having at least partial WFH after this pandemic. If my office doesn’t let me WFH, I will also be leaving. A good portion of my team is similarly minded, but management is insistent on disallowing WFH. I can’t wait to see their faces when the company bleeds massive swaths of engineering talent. It’s about damn time that companies realized that they ought to treat their employees like the adults that…

The hybrid model is such a joke. For most, working in the office might as well be the 21st century business suit: an antiquated formality designed to demonstrate your obedience to authority. The hybrid model is a suit on a t-shirt. And forcing employees to be in the office X days a week means productivity on those WFH days will be nonexistent, especially if they butt against a weekend. But of course while the WFH lif…

[deleted]

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#253

Post by BTCOG »

rhacker wrote: post #162
2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find in person meetings more effective. I’d rather meet once a week or 2 and get all the big meetings done then go away to code, than have Zoom meetings every single day. I predict that in all the full time WFH companies, some small group will start having in person meets once every X. Or some other startup will innovate past an incumbent by having a hybrid model. Then hybrid will be the next “new” thing.

Zoom is the new power point. Has anyone noticed we've replaced the concept of "the thing that is annoying about meetings is power point" to just blaming zoom. I don't even think we have a point to make, it's just like a thing we say... like oh god another power point meeting, oh god another zoom call. I think the real thing is "oh god another thing I have to do I don't want to" - but we're afraid to say it.

I guess I should be so fortunate that I've been working from home since the end of February 2020 and that all we use is Microsoft Teams for audio-only calls. We have never done video calls and I cannot imagine why anyone would stand for that shit.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#254

Post by throwaway894345 »

kibwen wrote: post #239
throwaway894345 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our CEO wanted everyone back in the office even after agreeing that fully remote resulted in no perveptible decline in productivity. The rationale is that serendipitous interactions happen more often in person, which I believe, but not enough to come back in full time. Anyway, engineering was pretty clear that we would have even more attrition if we had to come back in, and the CEO relented. I’m trying to think of a…

> it felt a bit like servitude A feudalistic remnant in the nature of corporate hierarchy is that people higher up in the hierarchy feel that this gives them inherent superiority over people lower in the hierarchy. In reality, there's no reason that someone in a corporate hierarchy needs to have their status (including compensation, etc.) determined by their place in the hierarchy. A hierarchy should just be an effic…

Agreed, and in fairness the fact that it was such a noteworthy experience means that it is rare, at least in my life. For the most part the hierarchy has been just a means to organize a group effort. And even then I prevailed. I think that says a lot about the intervening progress.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#255

Post by petre »

sleepybrett wrote: post #238
prirun wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of meetings are also a complete waste of many people's time.

This is something great about video conferencing. Forced to attend a meeting that has no bearing on your work. If you are there in person, banging away on your keyboard the whole time in the corner is considered rude. On video conferencing you can just mute yourself, turn down the volume and just keep your ears perked for your name and keep working.

In Japan it's socially acceptable to fall asleep during meetings.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#256

Post by Der_Einzige »

sam0x17 wrote: post #231
sam0x17 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually illegal, and the information you have provided is enough to get a search warrant in the U.S. I have forwarded this thread to my local FBI field office. Have a nice day :)

If you are doing this on US soil, it is a felony to surveil employees without their express knowledge and consent. Hacker News has your IP address information so unless you are using a proxy or are outside of the US you'll be hearing from the FBI shortly.

Based. I hope that this isn't an empty threat and ends up actually being prosecuted.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#257

Post by neutronicus »

kibwen wrote: post #239
throwaway894345 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our CEO wanted everyone back in the office even after agreeing that fully remote resulted in no perveptible decline in productivity. The rationale is that serendipitous interactions happen more often in person, which I believe, but not enough to come back in full time. Anyway, engineering was pretty clear that we would have even more attrition if we had to come back in, and the CEO relented. I’m trying to think of a…

> it felt a bit like servitude A feudalistic remnant in the nature of corporate hierarchy is that people higher up in the hierarchy feel that this gives them inherent superiority over people lower in the hierarchy. In reality, there's no reason that someone in a corporate hierarchy needs to have their status (including compensation, etc.) determined by their place in the hierarchy. A hierarchy should just be an effic…

It's possible that the rank-and-file will only follow leaders who have been granted outsize status.

That way, executive compensation would need to be high even if value over replacement executive is low.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#258

Post by readonthegoapp »

dheera wrote: post #65
xvector wrote: post #3

Can’t imagine not having at least partial WFH after this pandemic. If my office doesn’t let me WFH, I will also be leaving. A good portion of my team is similarly minded, but management is insistent on disallowing WFH. I can’t wait to see their faces when the company bleeds massive swaths of engineering talent. It’s about damn time that companies realized that they ought to treat their employees like the adults that…

Personally I look forward to hybrid but where I decide when to go in to the office as needed to get work done. Probably that would mean 2-3 days a week for me, given the kind of engineering work I do. I'm actually tired of staying home all day every day because of work. I actually kind of enjoy "going somewhere" for the day, seeing the sun rise, smelling the fresh bread and coffee as I pass the bakery, seeing restaur…

I used to do this type of commute

But having the ticket master interrupt my work or sleep used to kill me

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#259

Post by CameronNemo »

iaw wrote: post #217
paulpauper wrote: post #79

Despite a lot people leaving the workforce permanently, the stock market keeps going up, GDP forecasts are very strong, and so are corporate profits. It goes to show the remarkable ability of companies to adapt in the face of adversity, and also the resiliency of the US consumer ,especially the high-end consumer. "If 50% of employees quit, fine, we'll just boost the productivity by 100% of the 50% who remain using cl…

> the stock market keeps going up It's not because of productivity gains, the Fed has been pumping money into the economy without regard for inflation and we're finally seeing the financial system respond. everything is more expensive, not just stocks.

While this is true, the stock market gained something like 20% while CPI is sitting at ~5%.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#260

Post by cookiengineer »

doctor_eval wrote: post #245

Managers are getting a pretty bad rap in these threads, and maybe (or maybe not) in BigCo’s that’s reasonable, but I run a tiny shop and I’ve asked my team to come to the office as often as possible, despite the fact that half of us have been working together for years - and we get on just fine online. The reason is that the other half of the team haven’t got this experience; they are young and relatively inexperienc…

I think that most people that hate working in the office don't hate it because of the office - they hate it because of focus quality.

A social obligation here, a senseless chat there, a coffee here...a person reminding you about an unimportant email there.

There are just way too many distractions from work, at work. And those distractions are what people describe as "corporate life" because corporates over-micro-managed everything.

Open office spaces are horrible, except for the people not having to work in them - which coincidentially always decide pro open office work space.

If the work culture is manifested in interrupting your colleagues over unimportant stuff all the time, it's perceived as toxic by engineering people because they lose valueable focus time.

That is essentially what it boils down to. Add the additional time required to get there (and costs on the side of the employee for commute) and you have the perfect formula to get rid of quality work people.

While there are upsides of working in the office, there's also huge downsides that management likes to ignore in the discussion.

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