Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead • Hacker News Board

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#231

Post by sam0x17 » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 2:32 AM UTC

sam0x17 wrote: post #222

dsyrk wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see you must be a sharp knife. I conceal my surveillance from my employees but I should tell you the name of my company so you can tell them?

This is actually illegal, and the information you have provided is enough to get a search warrant in the U.S. I have forwarded this thread to my local FBI field office. Have a nice day :)

If you are doing this on US soil, it is a felony to surveil employees without their express knowledge and consent. Hacker News has your IP address information so unless you are using a proxy or are outside of the US you'll be hearing from the FBI shortly.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#232

Post by me_here_alone » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 2:32 AM UTC

trebligdivad wrote: post #49

matsemann wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but management is insistent on disallowing WFH I think a lot of management will be out of a job in the future, and they are grasping for control. Not saying we don't need managers, just that there are lots of fat that can be removed, and people have noticed lots of the managers weren't needed or invisible when WFH.

Having worked from home for ~8 years, I don't think it actually makes that much difference - you still end up with a manager who is responsible for making sure they can handle problems you have or about you and asking you to do things, and you still have managers associated with the projects you work on (those may or not be in any way related). The ones who randomly rearrange the seating however can disappear.

I am a manager that has been full-time WAH for 15+ years. A leader who understands their role should be empowering people to do their jobs, and providing them the tools they need to do it, be it in the office, at home, or on another planet even. That's what leaders do. If they think their job is to monitor and micromanage their teams, then they are not leaders, just bad managers. Leaders see the value in employees creating a situation where they increase their productivity. I really don't care where my employees work as long as they meet clearly defined goals and objectives. They know what they need to do, and I trust them to figure out how best to accomplish it!

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#233

Post by hn_throwaway_99 » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 2:35 AM UTC

durovo wrote: post #207

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #4

By “quitting” they mostly mean getting new jobs or career changes. Not necessarily refusing to work in an office. The headline is misleading. It’s also still a relatively small number in absolute terms: > In April, the share of U.S. workers leaving jobs was 2.7%, according to the Labor Department, a jump from 1.6% a year earlier to the highest level since at least 2000. The higher turnover is expected in a booming ec…

What people miss in these discussions about going full remote is that the market for software developers is very good right now but this won't last forever. Many companies are surely going to embrace full-remote once they have built up the right processes and infra. When that happens, it is not going to matter whether you live in California or Mexico or Brazil. It is much easier to replace an employee who is working…

I think you are very much correct - for all the people lambasting working in an office, I hope they realize it will mean they will be competing against a much larger swath of humanity.

Also, I'm glad you highlighted "Mexico or Brazil". Unlike decades past where lots of outsourcing was done to India, I think many people now realize the inherent inefficiencies when teams are 12 time zones apart. The Americas don't have that problem for US-based businesses. In fact, I often see lots of complaining on HN that Canadian dev salaries tend to be much lower than in the US - seems like a no-brainer to work remotely for a US company if you are in Canada if it results in a big salary increase.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#234

Post by throwaway894345 » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 2:35 AM UTC

xvector wrote: post #3

Can’t imagine not having at least partial WFH after this pandemic. If my office doesn’t let me WFH, I will also be leaving. A good portion of my team is similarly minded, but management is insistent on disallowing WFH. I can’t wait to see their faces when the company bleeds massive swaths of engineering talent. It’s about damn time that companies realized that they ought to treat their employees like the adults that…

Our CEO wanted everyone back in the office even after agreeing that fully remote resulted in no perveptible decline in productivity. The rationale is that serendipitous interactions happen more often in person, which I believe, but not enough to come back in full time. Anyway, engineering was pretty clear that we would have even more attrition if we had to come back in, and the CEO relented.

I’m trying to think of a less dramatic way to describe the aftertaste of that interaction, but all I can come up with was that it felt a bit like servitude—like this person felt he could dictate to me where I would do my work including an unpaid commute (it’s not like my work depends on me being in a factory, for example). I’m thankful that my skill set is basically on fire right now and I can go elsewhere without losing money, but at the same time sad for everyone else who lacks that luxury.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#235

Post by wolverine876 » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 2:41 AM UTC

WFH doesn't seem worth all this anger. It emphasizes to me that Internet rage/outrage is a social activity, to a degree, an exciting opportunity to join with others, share emotions with them, and have some power.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#236

Post by gpm » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 2:41 AM UTC

b3morales wrote: post #38

mlang23 wrote: post #24

I cant wait until I can go back to the office 100%. WFH, while convenient, is something I never wanted. I didnt want it 20 years ago when I started to work, and I dont want it full time today either, even with the covid experience. Human interaction is not tradable, and online conferencing sucks even more then a real meeting.

That's fine! (I've said this in another similar thread recently:) The push here (to the extent that it's organized) should not be "abolish offices, everyone is remote". It should be "trust people to choose the environment where they work best". If you like the office, then you should be able to choose a company that has an office for you to work in. I personally work remotely and find it suits me. But I wouldn't mind…

> then you should be able to choose a company that has an office for you to work in

This is the key part though, this isn't an individual choice, it's a company (or at least team) one.

If the rest of your team is in the office, and you aren't, then you aren't going to be "in the loop" and you aren't going to be an effective engineer.

If the rest of your team is not in the office, and you are, well, at that point it's not really different from a coworking space. The advantages of in person communication simply don't exist.

So... expect teams changing from/to in office to be painful, people who disagree are going to have to choose over leaving or sucking it up, and that's not a nice choice to be making. Unfortunately this is somewhat viral between teams too, because your manager is effectively on the "manager team" as well as the local team, and people do move around between team...

Moreover there will be plenty of times were you want to work for company X for reasons unrelated to whether or not they work from an office, you like the company mission, the technology, etc. As a result even once things settle down you can't expect everyone to be happy with the office/no-office/partial-office choice that is made...

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#237

Post by randycupertino » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 2:42 AM UTC

dheera wrote: post #65

xvector wrote: post #3

Can’t imagine not having at least partial WFH after this pandemic. If my office doesn’t let me WFH, I will also be leaving. A good portion of my team is similarly minded, but management is insistent on disallowing WFH. I can’t wait to see their faces when the company bleeds massive swaths of engineering talent. It’s about damn time that companies realized that they ought to treat their employees like the adults that…

Personally I look forward to hybrid but where I decide when to go in to the office as needed to get work done. Probably that would mean 2-3 days a week for me, given the kind of engineering work I do. I'm actually tired of staying home all day every day because of work. I actually kind of enjoy "going somewhere" for the day, seeing the sun rise, smelling the fresh bread and coffee as I pass the bakery, seeing restaur…

> I actually kind of enjoy "going somewhere" for the day, seeing the sun rise, smelling the fresh bread and coffee as I pass the bakery, seeing restaurants setting up for the day, and the world waking up together with me as I step outside. Somehow that sensual experience gives me a sort of motivation to get stuff done.

This sounds rather idyllic and I'm sort of picturing you as Belle in Beauty in the Beast as she walks around her provincial town singing to the shopkeepers as she walks to the library.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#238

Post by sleepybrett » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 2:46 AM UTC

prirun wrote: post #134

pavel_lishin wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of meetings are much easier to have in person. Socializing, as other people pointed out, is also much easier in person.

A lot of meetings are also a complete waste of many people's time.

This is something great about video conferencing. Forced to attend a meeting that has no bearing on your work. If you are there in person, banging away on your keyboard the whole time in the corner is considered rude. On video conferencing you can just mute yourself, turn down the volume and just keep your ears perked for your name and keep working.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#239

Post by kibwen » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 2:46 AM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #234

xvector wrote: post #3

Can’t imagine not having at least partial WFH after this pandemic. If my office doesn’t let me WFH, I will also be leaving. A good portion of my team is similarly minded, but management is insistent on disallowing WFH. I can’t wait to see their faces when the company bleeds massive swaths of engineering talent. It’s about damn time that companies realized that they ought to treat their employees like the adults that…

Our CEO wanted everyone back in the office even after agreeing that fully remote resulted in no perveptible decline in productivity. The rationale is that serendipitous interactions happen more often in person, which I believe, but not enough to come back in full time. Anyway, engineering was pretty clear that we would have even more attrition if we had to come back in, and the CEO relented. I’m trying to think of a…

> it felt a bit like servitude

A feudalistic remnant in the nature of corporate hierarchy is that people higher up in the hierarchy feel that this gives them inherent superiority over people lower in the hierarchy. In reality, there's no reason that someone in a corporate hierarchy needs to have their status (including compensation, etc.) determined by their place in the hierarchy. A hierarchy should just be an efficient means to organize a group effort, and not a social order.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#240

Post by wolverine876 » Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 2:47 AM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #4

By “quitting” they mostly mean getting new jobs or career changes. Not necessarily refusing to work in an office. The headline is misleading. It’s also still a relatively small number in absolute terms: > In April, the share of U.S. workers leaving jobs was 2.7%, according to the Labor Department, a jump from 1.6% a year earlier to the highest level since at least 2000. The higher turnover is expected in a booming ec…

> These articles with hyperbolic headlines

WFH also appeals to American conservatives who want to target cities, which are democratic strongholds, and reduce their power and reputation. The WSJ is the leading news source of U.S. conservative elite.