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Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

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Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#191

Post by dsyrk »

the_gipsy wrote: post #155
dsyrk wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree it will be spoofed if employees know what is being measured. It’s the main reason we don’t disclose it. I can already see the people who will spoof it because many of the employees make sure to connect each day, but then often just leave it and never type anything almost the whole day. I’ve also thought about adding additional telemetry data like, unique commands run, num files accessed, web access stats, etc…

Has it ever occurred to you, to measure the actual work?

Of course I do that to and did that before the pandemic. I review all code commits and review reports and results from the system. I also track completed tasks and assign them complexity level. Am I stupid or something? How would I know who is completing tasks or not. This was how we operated before WFH, the change is implementing direct surveillance telemetry on employee activity on the system. Another improvement is that collaboration is all now over internal chat, which I can review these discussions and get a sense of level of collaboration. When I overlay all the information it gives me an extremely good idea of what is actually happening.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#192

Post by ghaff »

d110af5ccf wrote: post #186
xvector wrote: post #3

Can’t imagine not having at least partial WFH after this pandemic. If my office doesn’t let me WFH, I will also be leaving. A good portion of my team is similarly minded, but management is insistent on disallowing WFH. I can’t wait to see their faces when the company bleeds massive swaths of engineering talent. It’s about damn time that companies realized that they ought to treat their employees like the adults that…

> ... the extremely rare spark of whiteboard innovation is not worth ... Crazy idea - install a whiteboard at home and point a 4k camera at it. The broke college student version of this involves a pen, paper, and the camera on your cellphone; it works quite well.

Whiteboard area in a conference room has some challenges to recreate. That said, we've found collaborative editing replaces a lot of sloppy handwriting and people capturing with smartphones and recreating after the meeting. To say nothing of the fact, that wealthy SV companies complaining that they have to structure their entire companies arounf in-person because virtual whiteboards are a really hard problem should be basically ridiculed.

I actually agree that in-person get-togethers are useful. I'm just not convinced they can't be handles as quarterly events in many situations--as many companies with distributed workforces already do.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#193

Post by tolbish »

b3morales wrote: post #38
mlang23 wrote: post #24

I cant wait until I can go back to the office 100%. WFH, while convenient, is something I never wanted. I didnt want it 20 years ago when I started to work, and I dont want it full time today either, even with the covid experience. Human interaction is not tradable, and online conferencing sucks even more then a real meeting.

That's fine! (I've said this in another similar thread recently:) The push here (to the extent that it's organized) should not be "abolish offices, everyone is remote". It should be "trust people to choose the environment where they work best". If you like the office, then you should be able to choose a company that has an office for you to work in. I personally work remotely and find it suits me. But I wouldn't mind…

The problem is that the "I like the office and everyone else should too because it legitimizes and popularizes my choices" crowd will never say that out loud so you don't know which arguments are in earnest.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#194

Post by gnicholas »

Can someone whose company is doing hybrid WFH share a bit about how zoom and in-person meetings are scheduled and happen?

Do people coordinate their in-person days so that meetings can be in-person?

How do zoom meetings happen when some employees are in a meeting room together, and others are on zoom?

It’s easy enough to have a big screen in that room to put remote participants on-screen, but how do remote people know who is talking or see all around the room? Where are cameras placed?

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#195

Post by closeparen »

disrael wrote: post #151
pavel_lishin wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of meetings are much easier to have in person. Socializing, as other people pointed out, is also much easier in person.

Just how close are you trying to be with your co-workers? My parents don't live in the same state with me but we talk weekly on the phone and meet once in a while in person. If you need hourly contact with your co-workers I hope it's more about doing the job then socializing. If it is about doing the job and your job is software development then are alternatives to endless meetings.

On HN and Reddit people are engaged in the characteristic activity of friendship - discussing topics of mutual interest - yet it would be pretty sad if that’s all someone had for friends.

Similarly, just because you do work with some people, does not make them your team.

Now maybe programming can be organized in a way that doesn’t really require a team. People can get projects done by interacting in a more transactional, contractor/gig-worker way. But that is a very different experience from being part of a team.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#196

Post by detaro »

gnicholas wrote: post #194

Can someone whose company is doing hybrid WFH share a bit about how zoom and in-person meetings are scheduled and happen? Do people coordinate their in-person days so that meetings can be in-person? How do zoom meetings happen when some employees are in a meeting room together, and others are on zoom? It’s easy enough to have a big screen in that room to put remote participants on-screen, but how do remote people kno…

> How do zoom meetings happen when some employees are in a meeting room together, and others are on zoom?

Generally, remote attendants means everyone takes the call from their desk. (some exceptions if the structure allows it, e.g. people in a meeting room present to a distributed audience, but for general meetings that's the default)

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#197

Post by analog31 »

dheera wrote: post #116
cyberlurker wrote: post #6

I actually don’t mind one way or the other, but I just want a clear rationale for over riding the employees preference. I despise the water cooler theory because I’m perfectly capable of socializing over voip or IM. I do it at work and then shortly afterwards with friends on discord. The real reasons for return to office should be tangible. If you have metrics that people are taking advantage, share them. The only th…

It's also worth noting that there's a huge bias toward pure software engineers on HN. I do software, but I have to work with some large industrial hardware and it's so much easier to just have the hardware in front of you. Especially when you have to from time to time set up hardware that isn't even on the network yet. Telepresence just isn't there yet, and the quality of internet connections and videoconference tool…

I also work on hardware. Oddly enough I moved my lab to my house when the pandemic hit, but I don't work with really huge or dangerous stuff.

I think there's going to be an interesting dynamic when the hardware workers go back to the office and the software workers stay home. The tendency for the software department to become isolated from the rest of the business was already present before the pandemic, but may become more pronounced.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#198

Post by DanHulton »

gnicholas wrote: post #194

Can someone whose company is doing hybrid WFH share a bit about how zoom and in-person meetings are scheduled and happen? Do people coordinate their in-person days so that meetings can be in-person? How do zoom meetings happen when some employees are in a meeting room together, and others are on zoom? It’s easy enough to have a big screen in that room to put remote participants on-screen, but how do remote people kno…

I did hybrid at a company a couple years ago, and the way we solved the meeting problem was that everyone at the in-person meeting would connect via their laptop as well. All in-person laptops would be on mute except one, who would have a good camera that could capture the room.

I found it pretty natural to _also_ look at the camera while also looking around the room, as if you were just making eye contact with a new person. And while the "highlight" border would only ever show for one in-person person, cameras are usually close enough that your eye is naturally drawn to whomever's mouth is moving.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#199

Post by benrbray »

dimmke wrote: post #174
loloquwowndueo wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“ lack of proper division between my home life and work life.” This tells me you’re doing WFH wrong or don’t have enough discipline for it. That’s okay, wfh is not for everyone, but don’t blame this on anyone but yourself. There are tons of ways to have that proper separation, including but not limited to, replacing the transitional commute with a walk to switch contexts. You can find a lot of tips and techniques on…

I am reasonably productive WFH (I was 2 days a week remote before pandemic and have had fully remote jobs in the past)- but the way some people talk about it really bothers me. The people that want it, really want it, are almost like zealots about it. Where if anybody mentions that they struggle with WFH, they get mad almost like it's a kid raising his hand to tell a teacher they forgot to collect the homework. And I…

I really like your point about losing our "second place". It's a great way to verbalize the feeling I've had that permanent WFH on a major scale takes American individualism to the logical extreme.

Rather than learning to live with each other, we'll all just retreat to our own little castles (or shacks), taking all focus away from making public spaces enjoyable for everyone. Who needs public transit when we never leave home? Whatever your station in life is where you'll stay, there are no trains coming.

We'll all have a carefully curated whitelist of like-minded neighbors to protect ourselves from witnessing any of the negative externalities of our lifestyles. Our only view of the outside world will be entertainment news that coddles our doxastic anxiety, telling us the exactly what we want to hear at all times.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#200

Post by dls2016 »

vmception wrote: post #166
dls2016 wrote: post #146

My last job was remote even before pandemic, but the pandemic was used as an excuse to fire people... who a few months later turned into off shore replacements. Thankfully I received an SBIR which will cover half my salary for a few months. But it’s also a good time to quit due to child and health care tax credits!

"Revenue crunch used as excuse to lower overhead costs" man, employees are never going to get it and they resist unionizing? see you in 100 years this is hilarious

I fully agree regarding unions or even co-ops. The managers at this job wanted me to have ideas about the future of the product... that is, do their managing for them. Why would I contribute in that manner after you demonstrated your view of the workers as disposable?! I will take my ideas and capture the value, myself or with a like-minded group. Not be the phd face lending legitimacy to your mismanaged business.
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