Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead • Hacker News Board

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#121

Post by dsyrk » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 8:39 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #111

dsyrk wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I switched my tech company to full WFH. I also implemented detailed surveillance on all employees, which I don’t disclose. It shows me keyboard/mouse activity levels and window update rates. It’s very interesting information, I have much better insight how and when people work, which are very different from each other. I also have other productivity measures and now I can really understand when someone is not working…

That only works until someone writes a "boss" app that pretends to click keys and move the mouse. Back in the 80's, many computer games had a "boss" key which would pause the game and throw up a screen that looked like a spreadsheet.

I agree it will be spoofed if employees know what is being measured. It’s the main reason we don’t disclose it. I can already see the people who will spoof it because many of the employees make sure to connect each day, but then often just leave it and never type anything almost the whole day. I’ve also thought about adding additional telemetry data like, unique commands run, num files accessed, web access stats, etc. The last 15 months of data is pretty interesting data set with only basic activity measure and I’d imagine would be even more interesting with better context.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#122

Post by dsyrk » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 8:51 PM UTC

ratsforhorses wrote: post #120

dsyrk wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I switched my tech company to full WFH. I also implemented detailed surveillance on all employees, which I don’t disclose. It shows me keyboard/mouse activity levels and window update rates. It’s very interesting information, I have much better insight how and when people work, which are very different from each other. I also have other productivity measures and now I can really understand when someone is not working…

Have you seen an increase in productivity?

Absolutely, I’m able to use the insights to work to increase productivity. Remember I don’t disclose I can see this. It has let me better manage cases, first the slacker that assumes because I’m old and a manager I’m stupid and they can BS me and not work, but also importantly find the hidden skilled developers, there have been a few that have completed complex tasks very quickly considering their activity on the system, so I can ramp up their load and complexity, wheres before they had hidden from me how good they really were.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#123

Post by luffapi » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 8:51 PM UTC

marcinzm wrote: post #110

luffapi wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to deal with my co-workers as professionals, definitely not as friends. They are not my friends, I’m paid to work with them. Companies are more productive when you remove social drama, not less.

There's always social drama because humans are social creatures and not machines. Hiding your head in the sand doesn't make it go away but merely means you're at it's whims with no influence on it. The difference is that if you're viewed as a friend other people first give you the benefit of the doubt since they assume you had good intentions. If you're not they don't and then things can escalate very quickly and not…

It sounds like you’ve worked under terrible management if you’re having these problems. On a properly run team people don’t squabble and politic. It is possible to work in a healthy manner, remote or otherwise. The drama you avoid when remote stems from not being forced to co-locate with individuals for a large swath of your waking hours. That is a breeding ground for unhealthy behavior.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#124

Post by luffapi » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 8:56 PM UTC

bigmattystyles wrote: post #108

luffapi wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WFH with kids is amazing. You get to see them grow up and can move to a lower cost of living area where they can have room, a yard… It’s definitely the most family friendly working arrangement.

I was talking more about the stress of keeping the same standard of living during a downturn. Again, I am pro-WFH but fear the vulnerability one is in when not seen in person. I've been bit before. Perhaps it's a critical mass thing, the more people WFH, the more my fears will assuage, but for the time being, I guess I just don't know. Remember, during a down turn, the company wouldn't even have to lay you off to get…

There are a lot of WFH options now and more every day. Many, if not most new startups will never have an office.

I’d be far more worried about being saddled with a huge mortgage to live close to an office. In a downturn, it’s not like there will be office jobs either. Yet you could still easily get stuck paying 1M+ for housing that would cost <300k in locations where you could wfh.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#125

Post by dsyrk » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 9:04 PM UTC

howaboutnope wrote: post #109

dsyrk wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to explain how a private employer collecting telemetry data on their own computer system whom the employees are paid to work on would be violating human rights and why would I feel pain or humiliation? We log everything in many situations. We also have full keylogging and all command logging via auditd. There is a lot of idealistic and childish responses to my approach, including yours. I’m not snooping anything…

You treat people like toddlers, you can't even look them in the eye and tell them that, and then call me childish? Anything else, you anonymous coward? The fact that you can't tell that to the people you do it to says it all. No, I don't care to explain to you what was your responsibility to look into before you even put it into action. > I’m not snooping anything by monitoring our computer systems in the way I do. Y…

What in the world are you talking about? You honestly believe I can be sued for monitoring employee activity on a private businesses computer systems? The level of entitlement expressed by some HN commenters is unbelievable. Snooping would be somehow spying on their private computer or information not their usage of their work system. We have every right to record everything and anything. I’ve actually considered expanding it to include periodic screenshots, maybe once per minute.

There is nothing for us to be “caught” you have no legal or ethical grounds. My guess is I’ve touched a nerve with you because you have realized if your manager could see such data then your scam might be up.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#126

Post by dsyrk » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 9:16 PM UTC

leesalminen wrote: post #107

infinitezest wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're getting "gamed" by your staff, the issue might not be with the developers' working habits...

That this manager chooses to “humiliate” certain employees is also indicative of the root cause of the issue.

They get pretty embarrassed when I complete their assignment in 2 hours after our meeting an assignment which should have taken them maybe one day but they have supposedly been working on for the last 8. It’s a very effective technique and so far has been applied to more junior employees with great success.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#127

Post by detaro » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 9:17 PM UTC

dsyrk wrote: post #125

howaboutnope wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You treat people like toddlers, you can't even look them in the eye and tell them that, and then call me childish? Anything else, you anonymous coward? The fact that you can't tell that to the people you do it to says it all. No, I don't care to explain to you what was your responsibility to look into before you even put it into action. > I’m not snooping anything by monitoring our computer systems in the way I do. Y…

What in the world are you talking about? You honestly believe I can be sued for monitoring employee activity on a private businesses computer systems? The level of entitlement expressed by some HN commenters is unbelievable. Snooping would be somehow spying on their private computer or information not their usage of their work system. We have every right to record everything and anything. I’ve actually considered exp…

There are parts of the world where that is illegal, yes.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#128

Post by _ubs3 » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 9:19 PM UTC

foobiekr wrote: post #67

k__ wrote: post #29

I have to admit, after I fought for remote work with a bunch of hiring managers before the pandemic, I feel quite a bit Schadenfreude right now. Also, I think, in the long run remote work will level the playing field between introverts and extroverts quite a bit.

It will not because remote only will continue to be rare. There’s a bit of a Harrison Bergeron thinking there.

Why would it? Are you reading the replies here? Most people want it. I doubt that management will be able to continue keeping it down.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#129

Post by bootlooped » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 9:25 PM UTC

luffapi wrote: post #90

bootlooped wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of people on the 100% remote side of the debate are heavily underestimating the value of relationship building and team cohesion (for most people). You can't replace the frequent face to face social interactions, lunches, and drinks after work with a Zoom call. We are social animals and the more channels there are in an interaction (words, voice, body language, etc...) the richer that interaction is, an…

I think the counter is to use your new found freedom wfh to get real non-commercial social interaction. With friends, family, neighbors… You’re at the mercy of your employer in more ways than one if you rely on them for such a core human need.

Firstly, the context of what I wrote was building trust and team cohesion within the organization. I don't think having or not having friends and family is relevant to that.

Secondly, we spend a lot of our finite lives working, do you want that part of your life to be cold and robotic? Wouldn't life be richer with a wide range of human relationships?

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#130

Post by _ubs3 » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 9:25 PM UTC

bootlooped wrote: post #69

marcinzm wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being the only one talking to the VPs and CEO in the office during lunch is probably going to be a great career boost. So don't be surprised when the people who go into the office get the nice promotions and you don't. Interestingly my whole team is very much in favor of being in the office a few days a week.

I think a lot of people on the 100% remote side of the debate are heavily underestimating the value of relationship building and team cohesion (for most people). You can't replace the frequent face to face social interactions, lunches, and drinks after work with a Zoom call. We are social animals and the more channels there are in an interaction (words, voice, body language, etc...) the richer that interaction is, an…

"Team cohesion" can work against you if you don't fit (which can be caused by a large variety of reasons). So maybe people estimate it very well, and calculate that less interaction is better.