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Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

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Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#91
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of people on the 100% remote side of the debate are heavily underestimating the value of relationship building and team cohesion (for most people). You can't replace the frequent face to face social interactions, lunches, and drinks after work with a Zoom call. We are social animals and the more channels there are in an interaction (words, voice, body language, etc...) the richer that interaction is, an…

I think the counter is to use your new found freedom wfh to get real non-commercial social interaction. With friends, family, neighbors… You’re at the mercy of your employer in more ways than one if you rely on them for such a core human need.

No one said your co-workers must or should be your only social connections. Simply that it helps if they are A social connection.

You're still going to deal with your co-workers eight hours a day. Dealing with people who think of you as a friend is a lot easier than with people who don't.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current state of affairs is that we have a labor shortage. The country needs more and more service workers. Tech is the go to backup plan for any college graduate (from any major), so the white collar work is perfectly saturated at the moment due to tech (not just developers, pm’s, sales, designers, etc). The only need for h1b are for the truly ruthless cost cutters. Otherwise, you can continuously undercut just…

Wages haven't kept pace with productivity since the 70's, and income and wealth inequality has reached astronomical proportions. IMO its time for a bit of inflation and improved employee leverage.

Inflation isn't a good thing. It is probably going to exasperate the wealth inequality and I don't see how it will improve employee leverage. It is an invisible tax caused by government artificially increasing the money supply.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#93
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the counter is to use your new found freedom wfh to get real non-commercial social interaction. With friends, family, neighbors… You’re at the mercy of your employer in more ways than one if you rely on them for such a core human need.

No one said your co-workers must or should be your only social connections. Simply that it helps if they are A social connection. You're still going to deal with your co-workers eight hours a day. Dealing with people who think of you as a friend is a lot easier than with people who don't.

I want to deal with my co-workers as professionals, definitely not as friends. They are not my friends, I’m paid to work with them. Companies are more productive when you remove social drama, not less.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#94
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I switched my tech company to full WFH. I also implemented detailed surveillance on all employees, which I don’t disclose. It shows me keyboard/mouse activity levels and window update rates. It’s very interesting information, I have much better insight how and when people work, which are very different from each other. I also have other productivity measures and now I can really understand when someone is not working…

Seriously? I would never, ever consider doing that to my employees. It’s plainly obvious if someone is doing their work or not without tracking their mouse movements. What’s the name of your company so I can tell everyone I know to avoid it like the plague? My company is gingrapp.com. We’re hiring and would never subject anyone to this.

I can see you must be a sharp knife. I conceal my surveillance from my employees but I should tell you the name of my company so you can tell them?

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#95
post #27

Ask again when the job market isn’t as good. And be careful, when layoffs come, those that aren’t seen as much will be thought off as less useful, even if it’s untrue. I’m for WFH where possible but let’s not pretend time zones and in person interactions, just to name a few benefits of colocation have no benefit or that they don’t appeal to anyone. Personally, my personality is such that I need to be at the office to…

Sure, but how many years of my life will I waste, wringing my hands in fearful anticipation of when the job market tanks? Either way, I’m fairly confident I’ll be able to get a job, or have enough saved to weather the storm. In the meantime, the sense of freedom that comes from WFH is unparalleled.

You got kids? :-)

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#96
I'm convinced that distributed teams, where team members need to cooperate a lot, will be almost always (often significantly) less productive than co-located teams.

I'll mention something trivial yet having strong effects. While working, I often come up with a bunch of random work questions. When co-located, I often look at the person who could answer / I could discuss with. Are they in the office currently? Are they currently looking deeply focused or are they already distracted / looking bored so asking them would not probably cause an issue? If yes, I can ask them and get an immediate answer to solve a problem / clarify my thinking etc.

There's no corresponding possibility with WFH which leads me to shooting an IM which is often answered too late thus delaying the problem-solving. You could say that the difference between getting an answer in 1 minute or 10 minutes does not make much difference, but in reality it can have big consequences. With 10 minutes latency, you've probably already switched contexts and will take a look at the answer later, thus introducing even more delay.

Another thing I noticed that different people manage differently with WFH. Some people communicate often and even build relationships over Zoom calls with ease. Such people typically have great communication / interpersonal skills in the first place. But OTOH there are people who hardly ever initiate communication, very often keep muted in most calls etc. Those are usually the more quiet ones in IRL, but in WFH they are even quieter, and it shows. This is very much amplified when the team did not ever meet each other IRL.

I think that the "best WFH performers" can form great distributed teams. But it's not going to work for the majority of teams, who are likely to see productivity decrease.

I actually believe most of the WFH communication problems could be solved / mitigated with better technology (VR office), but we're simply _nowhere near_ that.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#97
post #62
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this was really the case, WFH would be a no-brainer and would not meet so much resistance from management. Most companies clearly care more about the fact that they can account for the time you’re in office, as opposed to how productive you actually are.

I switched my tech company to full WFH. I also implemented detailed surveillance on all employees, which I don’t disclose. It shows me keyboard/mouse activity levels and window update rates. It’s very interesting information, I have much better insight how and when people work, which are very different from each other. I also have other productivity measures and now I can really understand when someone is not working…

So either you live in a place where human rights don't exist, or will be in an entirely new world of pain and humiliation once you are found out. And in the meantime, since can't own up to your snooping, you can't act on it at ALL without parallel construction, i.e. without being a liar and a cheat. What you gain by this is only valuable to those who can't lead and inspire. What you lose is invaluable yet unknown to you. Sad.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#98
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? I would never, ever consider doing that to my employees. It’s plainly obvious if someone is doing their work or not without tracking their mouse movements. What’s the name of your company so I can tell everyone I know to avoid it like the plague? My company is gingrapp.com. We’re hiring and would never subject anyone to this.

I can see you must be a sharp knife. I conceal my surveillance from my employees but I should tell you the name of my company so you can tell them?

People like you ruin planet earth, really, try to put more trust in people. Oh and if you didn't yet, watch Black Mirror.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> iron grip Jeez, give it a rest. Companies don't give a crap about your life. None have ever showed the slightest interest in anything I do when not at work.

Companies don't, managers often do.

I've never, ever encountered a manager that was interested in what anyone did when not on the clock. (Well, my manager at Boeing did invite me to come flying with him, and I did, and got a nice aerial tour of Seattle.)

Of course, I'm sure they exist. Not often, though.

The people who want to control other peoples' lives go into politics and activism, not business.

Re: Forget going back to the office – people are just quitting instead

#100
post #14
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hybrid model is such a joke. For most, working in the office might as well be the 21st century business suit: an antiquated formality designed to demonstrate your obedience to authority. The hybrid model is a suit on a t-shirt. And forcing employees to be in the office X days a week means productivity on those WFH days will be nonexistent, especially if they butt against a weekend. But of course while the WFH lif…

I'm struggling with the idea of hybrid WFH. It still means that I need to live near the office. Instead of a cheaper, quieter place far away from cities. Besides making middle-management happy, I'm not sure what is the benefit of having one required day per week at the office.

Social bonds, Office chat, meetings around a table, etc. There are so many things you can't get over a zoom call that not having a hybrid model is what I won't understand. You can have the best of both worlds and if that means that there are some limits on where you can live?

I saw someone say that a lot of what makes WFH successful currently are the bonds that we had built while working together... and that as time goes on, those bonds will loosen as new people come in that don't have those experiences and those hallway talk.

I think I agree with that... but it remains to be seen how things will work going forward. I see most companies going to a hybrid model. I see a large number of turnover at places that don't offer hybrid.

My current place of employement seems to be winding up towards hybrid and I have a long commute (had before covid). I'd be unhappy with 5 days meat in seat. I'll be very happy if I only have to be there 2 days a week. Still happy with only 3. Sad with 4. I'd probably hunt for a new job with 5. Maybe 4.

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