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As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

theatlantic.com

441–450 of 823 posts

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#441
post #199

> Few people understand that most religions e.g. Judaism and Christianity have an apologetic discipline – a deliberate arm open to debate. The range of permissible debate is quite narrow in reality, and usually start from an assumption that the core tenets are more or less true. > If you believe you are not religious, it just means that you don’t have the cognitive tools to recognize the secular ideology that you hav…

> usually start from an assumption that the core tenets are more or less true. You use this as a criticism of religion but I find it's true of secular people as well who have baseless beliefs that are just as deeply ingrained. Telling someone on hackernews you are religious you will probably get a ton of criticism and downvotes. You know what will get the same reaction? Telling someone you are a moral nihilist. Why i…

> Why is murder evil? Why is stealing evil? Why is anything evil or good for that matter? At least religious people have answers to these questions.

Hard to answer without first defining evil (ideally avoiding Godwin's law).

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the secular world is simply the things that are not connected with religion, to talk about it as a "thing" that needs anymore definition than that doesn't really make sense. It doesn't make sense for "secular" to define itself anymore than that. There may be groups of secular people who develop the kinds of traits you are interested in, for instance secular humanism. But the "secular world" is just those things that…

I agree with this. It seems like OP taking the position that everyone is in fact religious, even when they say they are not. This is a position I see many religious people take, and I completely disagree with the premise. I also don't really consider myself an atheist, either. Ignostic is accurate. Maybe that's worse ;-)

I'm trying to convince secular people, especially atheists, that they are in every way religious. That most of their beliefs are taken on faith. They have a value system of virtue and vice (usually implied), and they have deities ( forces, persona & phenomena that affect their life in a supernatural way).

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#443
It is not the first time that certain ideologies were seen having characteristics often associated with religious faith. There this French intellectual named Raymond Aron who wrote a book called "The Opium of the Intellectuals" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Opium_of_the_Intellectuals). He also used to be a schoolmate of Sarte.

He goes in very great details (although this is hard to read even for me as a native French speaker) about how his intellectual contemporaries (most of them Marxists) used to believe in the same kind of myths that are usually associated with religion. The proletariat as a messiah, the Left being the road towards Progress and the inevitable fate of Humanity pass to the next stage, that in all societies History is unavoidably leaning towards the same finality, the State has replaced Providence and is seen as a guide that shepherds the people.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#444
This seems counterintuitive to me if we assume a causal relationship. I’d imagine lessening religious faith would lessen ideological intensity. Then again when it was assumed most people were “religious”, it meant there was some higher thing than ourselves that we shared we could unify on. God however you take him, is at least a symbol of something above us, bigger than individuals, of an immaterial nature.

With the annihilation of God in the public discourse, we have to find something else bigger than ourselves that we can unify around on, and the ideological intensity maybe stems from arguing what that higher thing is. Is it science, love, security, pleasure, freedom? Different people will take on an ideology of some sort, and the intensity will because one groups higher thing they think is higher than another’s. God was the trump card for highest before, but now, I’m not sure.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#445
I also think that religiosity is a neurological phenomenon and is as much a part of being a human as language, music, money or tool use. Nobody, including myself, can escape it.

I see a lot of talk in this thread about making the definition of "religion" meaningless by broadening it too much, but I think the definition that gets narrowed in is "the phenomenon of humans engaging in dogmatic belief." A good example of this is transhumanism, specifically, the idea that you can upload your mind to a computer. It is all but given based on our current scientific understanding that the mind is inseparable from the body, yet somehow particularly atheist people behave as if they are separate things. This is a dogmatic belief.

Other closely related behaviors are ideological movements. I believe that religion is largely social in nature and driven more by social pressure and community/family and less by actual rational analysis or any other method of coming to conclusions about the world. I think it shows in the decline of traditional religion and also in the rise of what are often being termed "religions" these days by detractors (correctly in many cases, for example the Gaia worship end of times cult). When that is taken into account, the irrational behavior of swathes of people who hold as a core identity characteristic their perceived strict adherence to rationality makes a lot of sense.

I know I have a religion, I don't know what it is exactly, but I'm a human so I have one. But I try to be open to any idea I hold being challenged, I'd like my belief system to be as close to the truth as I can get it, and that means ignoring social proof and being prepared to find out that anything and everything I believe is wrong. Of course, until I find out I'm wrong, I think I'm right.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#446
This seems counterintuitive to me if we assume a causal relationship. I’d imagine lessening religious faith would lessen ideological intensity. Then again when it was assumed most people were “religious”, it meant there was some higher thing than ourselves that we shared we could unify on. God however you take him, is at least a symbol of something above us, bigger than individuals, of an immaterial nature.

With the annihilation of God in the public discourse, we have to find something else bigger than ourselves that we can unify around on, and the ideological intensity maybe stems from arguing what that higher thing is. Is it science, love, security, pleasure, freedom? Different people will take on an ideology of some sort, and the intensity will because one groups higher thing they think is higher than another’s. God was the trump card for highest before, but now, I’m not sure what is for most people.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#447
If you are interested in this topic, I really cannot recommend reading A Secular Age by the philosopher Charles Taylor enough.

It’s a huge book but the basic takeaway is this: the modern secular world is a thing that was created over the course of many centuries and cultural developments. It is not merely the subtraction of so-called primitive beliefs. The “subtraction thesis” is the predominant model of how most people (and until recently, religious scholars) interpreted the secularizarion process.

This means that the same basic historical and psychological forces are at play, but they’ve just been morphed and combined in different ways. What is truly new about the modern secular world is its immanence, which basically just means it is not concerned with a “world beyond” this one, and its “cross pressures”, or the state of being aware of other viable alternatives to one’s belief system.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Secular_Age

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#448
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atheism is actually polytheistic. The Gods can be identified by answering these questions: “why am I here?”, “who am i?”, “what should I do?”, “what is true?”, “why should I suffer & die?”, “what will happen tomorrow?”, “who matters more: myself or others?”. The deities of the secular religion would be “the self”, your parents, “the government/state and its figureheads“ , money (and the institutions controlling it),…

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying, but it's a little bit odd to me that a non-religious person would necessarily have an irrational fear of anything you mentioned. Where, in your world view, is there room for someone who can think critically and make rational decisions? Why must all of these totally reasonable things that make up our world be feared?

They can also be worshipped / loved.

There could be rational worship & love e.g. loving your parents because they care for you and they have direct impact over your wellbeing.

Irrational worship/ love is loving and icon or demagogue : extreme example being Kim Jong Il – when he is hurt or sad, everyone is heart broken.

Even in the free world we worship these demagogues. When trump is president many panic, some are elated. When the next president comes, the roles reverse some are relieved and some are sad.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the secular world has many different people agreed and the world would be more navigable if they adopted distinct names, garb & beliefs the way the other religions did. If you think about it, every thanksgiving debate was really a religious debate among people who didn’t clarify their membership.

> agreed and the world would be more navigable if they adopted distinct names, garb & beliefs the way the other religions did. Athiesm is to religion what not collecting stamps is to a hobby. We aren't the ones creating an imagined reality. We're just saying until there's substantive evidence to support the existence of a deity we probably shouldn't assume one exists.

> We aren't the ones creating an imagined reality.

One problem I see with this line of thinking is that it's often faux intellectualism, in the sense of not even attempting to define what a deity is in the first place, instead taking the lazy approach of "whatever you think god is doesn't exist". What exactly is a deity in the first place anyways? Bearded guy in the clouds? A lot of christians don't believe in that either. Jesus (i.e. a human)? A certain north korean leader that had similar godlike fame among followers most definitely existed (godhood claims notwithstanding). The holy spirit? Read "spirit" as you read "spirit of the law". Some flavors of pantheism actually argue that the concept of "an omnipotent omnipresent entity that nevertheless grants us free will" can be perfectly explained if said entity is the laws of physics.

As we can see, there's a pretty big spectrum ranging anywhere from strawmen to things that do exist. IMHO, proper atheism needs to be able to argue against the entire body of theism, not just narrow set of christian beliefs, and as such it's a belief system that doesn't fit many people. There's agnosticism (basically, "I don't know if god exists because the evidence doesn't convince me"), which is a much easier belief system to actually defend, and which I think describes more accurately the belief system that a lot of self-proclaimed atheists actually subscribe to.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atheism is actually polytheistic. The Gods can be identified by answering these questions: “why am I here?”, “who am i?”, “what should I do?”, “what is true?”, “why should I suffer & die?”, “what will happen tomorrow?”, “who matters more: myself or others?”. The deities of the secular religion would be “the self”, your parents, “the government/state and its figureheads“ , money (and the institutions controlling it),…

This is a standard argument most Christians make. It is not really true. You do not have to believe anything. You do not have to have answers. Let me give you an analogy. Imagine growing up in a militaristic society, and the expectation is that you join the military and fight in whatever wars your imperialistic country engages in. Now suppose you do not feel like doing that. Then your community starts asking you, "bu…

Atheism is actually a species of the gnostic heresy. Absolute certainty of the nonexistence of God is gnosis.
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