As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen • Hacker News Board

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#181

Post by kevstermcgee » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 11:46 PM UTC

tonymet wrote: post #156

gameswithgo wrote: post #123

>The secular world would benefit from adopting more formal definitions of their belief system. Just as the religious world contains Christians, Jews, Scientologists, Muslims, Hindus, et cetc" with sometimes radically different ideas, the secular world too has a great many different people with different belief systems. >If you believe you are not religious, it just means that you don’t have the cognitive tools to rec…

> the secular world has many different people agreed and the world would be more navigable if they adopted distinct names, garb & beliefs the way the other religions did. If you think about it, every thanksgiving debate was really a religious debate among people who didn’t clarify their membership.

> agreed and the world would be more navigable if they adopted distinct names, garb & beliefs the way the other religions did.

Athiesm is to religion what not collecting stamps is to a hobby. We aren't the ones creating an imagined reality. We're just saying until there's substantive evidence to support the existence of a deity we probably shouldn't assume one exists.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#182

Post by themolecularman » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 11:47 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #153

jeofken wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some Americans I know make a big difference between being a settler nation, like those who came to where there was no civilisation but hunters/gatherers, vs immigrants who move into the blooming civilisation

That's like, the difference between one ship full of Pilgrims and every subsequent ship, or between one wagon train and every subsequent wagon train, or between the people on the Mayflower and their kids (who showed up in a society that already existed).

The people who draw the distinction generally don't like the pilgrims settlers because of what they did when they got here. In contrast to immigrants, who did not "settle" anyone or any land. You can see a lot of this in today's politics as well.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#183

Post by IncRnd » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 11:47 PM UTC

antihipocrat wrote: post #173

IncRnd wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am an American, and I have known a number of immigrants over the years, one who won the lottery in order to come to the US. They have mostly but not all been from Eastern bloc countries. Every single one of those people is grateful to have come here, is amazed that the people born here do not take advantage of their birthright of opportunities, and absolutely does not think that talk about the greatest opportunitie…

I have had similar sentiments expressed to me from immigrants who have come to the country where I'm from (Australia). It's possible that the opportunities given to migrants relocating to any highly developed nation are equivalent. That is, not a phenomenon unique to the USA.

> It's possible that the opportunities given to migrants relocating to any highly developed nation are equivalent.

That's an excellent point, and one I doubt even needs to be answered to any degree of certainty. Everyone wants a better life, and that can be had in many ways and places.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#184

Post by rsj_hn » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 11:47 PM UTC

kazen44 wrote: post #140

rsj_hn wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you have 'an army of low skilled workers' then there's no room 'to absorb so many low skilled migrants', surely? Why? The world doesn't work by laws of semantic symmetry. The Swedish economy is structured on automation, on lack of personal service roles, and on skilled industry. Swedish furniture manufacturers use robots and those on the shop floor that remain are required to have skills to operate those robots.…

dutch farming (especially kasbouw/greenhouses) are absolutely crazy. in 2019, they exported roughly 95 billion euro's. And they are the second exporter globally. Mind you the country is absolutely tiny in comparison to the number one exporter (the USA). [0] https://www.government.nl/latest/news/2020/01/17/dutch-agric...

Yes, it's really a miracle of what you can accomplish with intelligence and capital investment. Very high wages even for agricultural workers, a small labor pool, and massive yields.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#185

Post by pjc50 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 11:47 PM UTC

tonymet wrote: post #144

hilbertseries wrote: post #120

It’s interesting how you’ve written so much here and not given what concrete example. Makes it very difficult to examine your argument, when you simply state that secular ideology is religious. I think it’s worth noting the definition of secular is: > denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.

Money, medicine, “tolerance”, “racism”, politically incorrect language, natural selection, “the self,” public figures (CEOs, scientists, figureheads), celebrities, recycling, wearing masks, the super bowl, the oscars, the multiverse, the big bang, psychotherapy, anti-depressants, over-eating & dieting, conspicuous traveling, visiting nature, architecture. You can throw those into the religious categories e.g. virtue,…

... cheese, machine screws, steering wheel covers, arriving on time for appointments, the CIA, and Thursday. Have we left anything out?

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#186

Post by __s » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 11:47 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #162

__s wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how being an atheist means someone lacks the ability to recognize ideology. Religion may help because it gives practice putting boundaries on ideas which are obviously ridiculous. You can't go around pushing everyone to follow Deuteronomy for very long Overall these pitfalls can be avoided by following some principles: reject taboos, seek more information, avoid metaphor, accept that some things you can't…

Atheism also doesn't guarantee that one does recognise ideology. OP is correct. Religion is a subset of ideology, and not being religious does not in any sense guarantee that one isn't trapped inside an ideological frame. But OP is wrong to suggest religion is a cure for this, or even a workable substitute. Ideological thinking is a template - a kind of psychological design pattern. It may well be innate, and can onl…

Agreed, I was specifically responding to their last line which casts a blanket assertion

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#187

Post by sebringj » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 11:47 PM UTC

Is it bad to point out the obvious? The way people process and vet information seems to be fundamentally in opposition and tied to their political party, reinforced by machine learning silos, diametrically opposed tv networks and further fueled by hostile nations tinkering with narratives. Let's not forget, without "he who shall not be named", this wouldn't have been possible.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#188

Post by Clewza313 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 11:48 PM UTC

skissane wrote: post #124

FridayoLeary wrote: post #9

>Immigrants to America tend to become American; emigrants to other countries from America tend to stay American. Is that true, or just the authors' speculation? Although it is easily explained. Everyone wants to be American because the USA, of all the countries in the world offers the greatest opportunities to the greatest number of people. They are the top of the food chain, in less nationalistic terms. (i'm not Ame…

> emigrants to other countries from America tend to stay American I don't think that's true of Australia. American Australians tend to assimilate pretty well, and after a while people tend to mostly forget they were Americans originally, even if they still have a bit of an accent. The Australian politician Kristina Keneally is an example. She was born in Nevada, grew up in Ohio, didn't move to Australia until her 20s…

Australia, like the US, is an immigrant nation, you can move there from anywhere and be considered an Australian within a generation.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#189

Post by beaconstudios » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 11:48 PM UTC

zxzax wrote: post #169

beaconstudios wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

scientism isn't typically practiced by scientists themselves, but atheist types who love pop-science and "science communicators" and the like. There's a ton of tropes associated with this belief system that have nothing to do with the actual process of scientific discovery. The Big Bang Theory as a show panders to this type, with physics techno-babble and guest appearances by Stephen Hawking (RIP) and Neil deGrasse T…

You seem to be describing a stereotype and not an actual person, and also that seems to be conflating it with an actual view on religious beliefs (atheism). So I can't say I know what you mean.

There's no conflating. Scientism-types being atheist (or anti-theist) seems to be a pretty universal pattern in my experience. If I called someone a bible-basher, it wouldn't be conflating to say they're a Christian - it's a prerequisite. It's also a stereotype, but if I were to call somebody a bible-basher you'd (presumably) know the kinds of character traits I was implying (sanctimonious, primarily).

But this feels like describing the colour blue - if you don't already know what it is, being on Hacker News, I don't think I can help you. Familiarising yourself with the philosophy of science (like Karl Popper's ideas for a start) and then looking at the way that many redditors and HNers talk about science (especially pop-science in astronomy and physics) or treat whitepapers, "new study finds" journalism etc would make you notice the difference.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#190

Post by yibg » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 11:50 PM UTC

tonymet wrote: post #93

Becoming more religious has helped me identify religious tendencies in the secular world. Ideology doesn’t imply supernatural deities, and some worldly phenomenon can be elevated to a supernatural level. Secular belief contains rituals, origin stories, deities, saints, priesthood, blasphemy, vice & virtue just as religion does. One aspect of religion I appreciate is that these aspects are well codified and debated –…

I care less about codifying beliefs than about if those beliefs are true or not. I may not have the cognitive tools to recognize all the secular ideologies that I have adopted, but at least there are mechanisms in place to examine if aspects of them hold up to reality or not.