As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen • Hacker News Board

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#151

Post by presentation » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 11:25 PM UTC

brailsafe wrote: post #122

tonymet wrote: post #93

Becoming more religious has helped me identify religious tendencies in the secular world. Ideology doesn’t imply supernatural deities, and some worldly phenomenon can be elevated to a supernatural level. Secular belief contains rituals, origin stories, deities, saints, priesthood, blasphemy, vice & virtue just as religion does. One aspect of religion I appreciate is that these aspects are well codified and debated –…

I think religion does imply the organized belief in a supernatural deity vs in a secular ideology it's unorganized belief in a somewhat connected set of ideas which are debated more discretely between people who want to. Seems silly to say that engaging with a secular ideology is the same as being in a religion.

I think OP’s point is exactly that a lot of secular ideology in practice doesn’t get debated discretely; most people don’t want to and have already ossified their opinions, even/especially if they don’t really understand why they believe what they believe.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#152

Post by IncRnd » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 11:27 PM UTC

antihipocrat wrote: post #73

FridayoLeary wrote: post #9

>Immigrants to America tend to become American; emigrants to other countries from America tend to stay American. Is that true, or just the authors' speculation? Although it is easily explained. Everyone wants to be American because the USA, of all the countries in the world offers the greatest opportunities to the greatest number of people. They are the top of the food chain, in less nationalistic terms. (i'm not Ame…

Does the USA really offer the greatest opportunities to the greatest number of poor people as a share of the total population, of all countries in the world? Why do so many people from the USA believe this tripe without question? It feels like the 'shining city on the hill' was extremely effective propaganda, for the domestic population.

I am an American, and I have known a number of immigrants over the years, one who won the lottery in order to come to the US. They have mostly but not all been from Eastern bloc countries.

Every single one of those people is grateful to have come here, is amazed that the people born here do not take advantage of their birthright of opportunities, and absolutely does not think that talk about the greatest opportunities is tripe or propaganda. They are also dumbfounded at the problems that we create for ourselves as a country. Yet, to a one, they all wish they could bring their parents and families here.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#153

Post by whatshisface » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 11:27 PM UTC

jeofken wrote: post #145

jltsiren wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things may look a bit different from a (West) European perspective. I know enough people who used to live in the US but left, partly because they did not want to inflict US citizenship upon their children. Among all wealthy countries, US citizenship is probably the least desirable one if you don't plan to live there permanently. In any case, the expat/immigrant situation is familiar to many Europeans as well. The rea…

Some Americans I know make a big difference between being a settler nation, like those who came to where there was no civilisation but hunters/gatherers, vs immigrants who move into the blooming civilisation

That's like, the difference between one ship full of Pilgrims and every subsequent ship, or between one wagon train and every subsequent wagon train, or between the people on the Mayflower and their kids (who showed up in a society that already existed).

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#154

Post by IggleSniggle » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 11:28 PM UTC

tonymet wrote: post #144

hilbertseries wrote: post #120

It’s interesting how you’ve written so much here and not given what concrete example. Makes it very difficult to examine your argument, when you simply state that secular ideology is religious. I think it’s worth noting the definition of secular is: > denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.

Money, medicine, “tolerance”, “racism”, politically incorrect language, natural selection, “the self,” public figures (CEOs, scientists, figureheads), celebrities, recycling, wearing masks, the super bowl, the oscars, the multiverse, the big bang, psychotherapy, anti-depressants, over-eating & dieting, conspicuous traveling, visiting nature, architecture. You can throw those into the religious categories e.g. virtue,…

These things typically fall under the umbrella of “culture,” of which religion is one defining aspect, to greater or lesser extents.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#155

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 11:28 PM UTC

RGamma wrote: post #69

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you move to the USA from the developing world or even Eastern Europe, regardless of what job you do your salary immediately soars above whatever you made in your country of origin. Taxation on many consumer goods is also likely to be lower. (For example, electronics can be expensive elsewhere due to high import duties or VAT.) Of course, cost of living in the USA is also much higher, but nevertheless lots of immig…

At this point I think the EU should just set aside a nice space somewhere and make it a raw capitalist, no taxes, no regulations, no safety net zone. "Talent" seems to like that environment.

[deleted]

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#156

Post by tonymet » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 11:28 PM UTC

gameswithgo wrote: post #123

>The secular world would benefit from adopting more formal definitions of their belief system. Just as the religious world contains Christians, Jews, Scientologists, Muslims, Hindus, et cetc" with sometimes radically different ideas, the secular world too has a great many different people with different belief systems. >If you believe you are not religious, it just means that you don’t have the cognitive tools to rec…

> the secular world has many different people

agreed and the world would be more navigable if they adopted distinct names, garb & beliefs the way the other religions did.

If you think about it, every thanksgiving debate was really a religious debate among people who didn’t clarify their membership.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#157

Post by indymike » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 11:29 PM UTC

hilbertseries wrote: post #120

It’s interesting how you’ve written so much here and not given what concrete example. Makes it very difficult to examine your argument, when you simply state that secular ideology is religious. I think it’s worth noting the definition of secular is: > denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.

Many of the things in the secular world must be taken on faith (belief absent inassailable truth). Truth is difficult and unclear.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#158

Post by beaconstudios » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 11:29 PM UTC

zxzax wrote: post #60

remarkEon wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s interesting seeing this point, which has been around the internet for at least a decade now, start to get printed in what are otherwise mainstream publications these days. I don’t know that I buy it, but I certainly understand and see the merit of the argument.

I don't really buy it, it seems to suggest that scientific discoveries are not questioned and changed constantly, when they absolutely are. It's not accurate to always refer to them as "beliefs."

scientism isn't typically practiced by scientists themselves, but atheist types who love pop-science and "science communicators" and the like. There's a ton of tropes associated with this belief system that have nothing to do with the actual process of scientific discovery. The Big Bang Theory as a show panders to this type, with physics techno-babble and guest appearances by Stephen Hawking (RIP) and Neil deGrasse Tyson.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#159

Post by spdy » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 11:30 PM UTC

FridayoLeary wrote: post #9

>Immigrants to America tend to become American; emigrants to other countries from America tend to stay American. Is that true, or just the authors' speculation? Although it is easily explained. Everyone wants to be American because the USA, of all the countries in the world offers the greatest opportunities to the greatest number of people. They are the top of the food chain, in less nationalistic terms. (i'm not Ame…

One reason they dont give up citizenship is that you are "declared" death and the IRS will come an collect there share. It can become quite expensiv for expats.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#160

Post by pdonis » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 11:31 PM UTC

tonymet wrote: post #93

Becoming more religious has helped me identify religious tendencies in the secular world. Ideology doesn’t imply supernatural deities, and some worldly phenomenon can be elevated to a supernatural level. Secular belief contains rituals, origin stories, deities, saints, priesthood, blasphemy, vice & virtue just as religion does. One aspect of religion I appreciate is that these aspects are well codified and debated –…

> If you believe you are not religious, it just means that you don’t have the cognitive tools to recognize the secular ideology that you have adopted.

Not all secular beliefs are ideologies. I think there are two key common factors between religious beliefs and ideologies that call themselves "secular":

First, people don't acquire the beliefs by considering and weighing evidence; they acquire them by being told them, usually at a young age, by people they trust, and making them part of their identity. That's why people are so resistant to changing such beliefs.

Second, the set of beliefs acquired in this way is not just a few isolated ones, but a whole network of beliefs that cover every aspect of life and are all asserted as justification for each other in what amounts to a logical circle. That's why it's so hard to penetrate such a belief system and get people to doubt it, even if it flies in the face of easily obtainable evidence.