Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because there are lots of opportunities to get an education that aren’t nearly as selective. The number of total slots has increased considerably. I think they should build more UCs and more UTs and A&Ms etc but to a great extent they already have and increased the class sizes to boot.
True. But we weren't talking about getting an education. The article is about Ivy League , and the immediate antecedent was about Harvard . Sure, you can get an education anywhere. But Harvard and the rest of the Ivy League are all about prestige and social connections. You aren't going to get that at A&M.
It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel
341–350 of 379 posts
Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel
#342Earlier quoted context omitted.
More fair =/= perfectly fair. I don’t care that someone has well over 5 orders of magnitude more wealth than I have. It doesn’t materially negatively affect my life in the least and, on the contrary, their inventions make my daily life better by wildly more than any negative impacts their houses, yachts, airplanes, or rockets could possibly have. I’m here to spend my life energy and time pursuing the things that are…
All of what you said is fine but the 'more fair' part has come about in a large part due to people recognising inequity and fighting to remove it. Just because it no longer affects you doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That the whole damn point of the original article. Anyways cheers yeah mate, current socioeconomic structures are fair. /s
Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel
#343Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology is a magnet school in Virginia, often ranked the top high school in the US. Admissions is (or was) based mostly on an admissions test, with a smaller portion based on middle school grades. In recent years, the student body was 70% Asian, 20% White, and the rest other minorities. Despite literally decades of trying to increase percentages of Black and Hispanic st…
Importantly, the proposal that activists sought was not a "holistic" process but instead a merit lottery. For all of the whinging that people have calling the activists racists, they wanted a system that still would have overrepresented asian students compared to the local population and had minimal opportunity for creeping bias through subjective systems. And there were programs that successfully increased represent…
"In a bid to ensure geographical diversity, a certain number of seats will be allotted to every middle school in Fairfax County, to be filled by eighth-graders at that school who meet criteria."
Doesn't seem very meritocratic to me. Doing a lottery among everyone with a 3.5 is basically saying select every student that isn't failing. High school GPAs are highly inflated to the point that most people who would be competitive in the current application system have above a 3.9. The geographical diversity quota is de facto a race quota due to redlining and cultural enclaves. I don't know how you can possibly argue that accepting students from all over the district objectively through merit is worse than a geographic quota per middle school.
And what happens when you diversity admit these students who, by the admissions test, are not as competitive? The vast array of clubs and other high school competitions become dominated by the most competitive students, i.e. they're going to look like what TJ looks like now: 70% Asian according to the article. In effect you're tossing unprepared students into the deep end to get screwed for the college application process because they have 0 chance at securing any sort of extracurricular activity for themselves.
The real kicker here is that by the article's quoted data, 70% of the school is Asian. If you really wanted racial diversity in line with the population you'd also be pushing for increased white representation along the lines of a 150% increase in # of white students admitted. But that's not what these activists are talking about, which is how you know their ideas are just politically motivated garbage.
Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel
#344Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the lawyer's kid could go do technology and my kid could grow up to be a lawyer-- it's just a somewhat less likely outcome. And what would be the likelyhood of the child of a single mom working 2 unskilled jobs to be either of those? Like I mentioned in a different comment, Systematic barriers exist without being consciously built and are then perpetuated as just the natural way of things.
Obviously paths out of poverty need to be improved-- and everyone given as much of a hand up as possible. And, what you're saying is a bit orthogonal to what was discussed here: attaining social mobility for everyone doesn't need to erase familial proclivities towards certain professions. In your eagerness to speak harshly to everyone else here, I think you're missing that what others are discussing is not what you'r…
This entire thread of conversation began with my highlighting the parallels of how the Varana system, supposedly of divine origins, accepted and prevalent, even today in Silicon Valley[1], is not dissimilar to what the original article and the parent comment spoke about.
Though sure, please do go ahead and argue the things that I allegedly said.
[1] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=silicon+valley+caste+system&t=fpas...
Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel
#345Earlier quoted context omitted.
You can only believe this if you've fallen for the spin perpetrated by media outlets. The number of unarmed Black civilians killed by police each year is so small that you can fit the entire list of names and details since 2014 (31 total) on a few pages of generously-spaced HTML table rows: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unarmed_African_Americ... . This is against approximately 10 million arrests per year and…
You can only believe this if you've fallen for the spin perpetrated by media outlets. The only reason you think there is (or was) an epidemic of police shootings of unarmed Black people [...] This is unfair - note that the comment you are referring to didn't specially mention police unarmed shootings of blacks, the comment was about disportionate policing and killings (which presumably includes, but is not exclusive…
> I live in a high-crime city in the northeast and as big component of my job is spending time in high-crime parts of cities all over the US (most recently, Chicago South Side, including Altgeld-Murray projects). The only times in my life where I thought my life or safety was in serious jeopardy involved interactions with police.
I understand there's a meme that exists about Black people needing to fear being murdered by the police. The entire point of my post is that, from a statistical point of view, this is almost as irrational as being afraid of terrorism, a plane crash, a shark attack, or being struck by lightning.
I was also focusing very narrowly on the topic of police killings of Black people, as you noted. I want to be very clear that I understand that Black people are victims of racism and socioeconomic inequality in other ways.
Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel
#346Earlier quoted context omitted.
Importantly, the proposal that activists sought was not a "holistic" process but instead a merit lottery. For all of the whinging that people have calling the activists racists, they wanted a system that still would have overrepresented asian students compared to the local population and had minimal opportunity for creeping bias through subjective systems. And there were programs that successfully increased represent…
"Under the new rules, Fairfax will first identify all eighth-graders who meet certain academic criteria: those who achieve an unweighted GPA of at least 3.5 while taking Algebra I or a higher-level math class, in addition to math and science honors courses and either an English or social studies honors course." "In a bid to ensure geographical diversity, a certain number of seats will be allotted to every middle scho…
I attended TJ. I remember the test prep and the BS extracurriculars to pad resumes. I am not convinced that a student who has a 3.5 and has taken accelerated courses is unprepared to attend.
Extracurriculars at TJ (at least many years ago) were also tremendously diverse. Sure, somebody who has only taken Algebra 1 in 8th grade is less likely to end up with the top scores in the math olympiads out of the whole school (though who knows, loads of students didn't attend a school that offered algebra 1 in 7th grade so maybe they were brilliant and didn't have the option), but when I attended I did stuff like play bridge, watch rock concert footage, or rehearse a play during 8th period. This does not feel like a meaningful concern.
Are you a TJ grad?
Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel
#347Earlier quoted context omitted.
Obviously paths out of poverty need to be improved-- and everyone given as much of a hand up as possible. And, what you're saying is a bit orthogonal to what was discussed here: attaining social mobility for everyone doesn't need to erase familial proclivities towards certain professions. In your eagerness to speak harshly to everyone else here, I think you're missing that what others are discussing is not what you'r…
Where exactly did I attempt to tear down family traditions? This entire thread of conversation began with my highlighting the parallels of how the Varana system, supposedly of divine origins, accepted and prevalent, even today in Silicon Valley[1], is not dissimilar to what the original article and the parent comment spoke about. Though sure, please do go ahead and argue the things that I allegedly said. [1] https://…
It's not a social justice or caste issue to have a probability distribution that says, say, within the trades, that a plumber's kid is more likely to be a plumber than an electrician, and vice-versa of an electrician's kid, when the two professions are of equal status.
If there's a whole lot of people below the class of tradesmen who have no real path to moving up-- that is a social justice, class, or caste issue. But surely not all manifestations of not-quite-equally likely outcome are social justice, class, or caste issues.
> Though sure, please do go ahead and argue the things that I allegedly said.
Seriously, the rush to sarcasm/abrasive language is not helpful to actually figuring out what you're arguing or to having a productive conversation.
Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel
#348Earlier quoted context omitted.
True. But we weren't talking about getting an education. The article is about Ivy League , and the immediate antecedent was about Harvard . Sure, you can get an education anywhere. But Harvard and the rest of the Ivy League are all about prestige and social connections. You aren't going to get that at A&M.
That’s the ultimate problem and why these schools are harmful. Letting in another thousand cognitive elites isn’t going to change anything.
Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel
#349Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It still matters who your parents are, but in a significantly different (and I think more fair) way. It amazes me when people think the current socioeconomic structures are fair. You do realise that most people here, including perhaps you are, economically speaking, closer to being poor than being part of the 1% rich, right? The economic gap between those you might consider poor and yourself is a rounding error mag…
More fair =/= perfectly fair. I don’t care that someone has well over 5 orders of magnitude more wealth than I have. It doesn’t materially negatively affect my life in the least and, on the contrary, their inventions make my daily life better by wildly more than any negative impacts their houses, yachts, airplanes, or rockets could possibly have. I’m here to spend my life energy and time pursuing the things that are…
Wait, are you under the impression that people with extreme wealth typically got it by inventing something?
It's called capitalism because the owners of capital reap most of society's economic rewards. Which is in the form of more capital.
IOW, the rich get richer.
The optimal wealth investment strategy to grow a large pile of money into a larger pile over the long term is pretty simple too (rebalance your portfolio annually, buy and hold), and attempts at a 'smarter' strategy tend to fail pretty miserably.
The American story used to be rags-to-riches-to-rags, but not anymore. These days once you've reached 'riches' your descendants are fairly likely to stay rich, and laziness on their part (ie. leaving the money pile on autopilot) is actually an asset (eg. Donald Trump would be a wealthier today if he had invested his inheritance and just left it alone).
Conversely, it is harder than ever to go from rags-to-riches in the first place.
You do not benefit from the wealthy in society pulling the ladder up behind themselves.
Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel
#350Earlier quoted context omitted.
But are Ivy League universities really that much better at training people or is their success mostly due to skimming from the top of the applicant pool? If the latter, then it seems like those students would do just as well if they didn't exist and nothing's really lost or gained either way by their exclusivity. If they have a magic recipe for creating success, why can't other universities copy it? Does it depend on…
There’s been research on this point and it supports your thesis. After adjusting for applicant scholastic aptitude, the additional benefit from attending an elite school is “generally indistinguishable from zero.” Excerpt from article*: In November 2002, the Quarterly Journal of Economics published a landmark paper** by the economists Stacy Dale and Alan Krueger that reached a startling conclusion. For most students,…