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It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

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Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#331

Post by meheleventyone »

janeroe wrote: post #289
meheleventyone wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not actually “just how the world works” that’s “how people have chosen to organise society”. Other places work differently with different outcomes.

Too bad, "I have no other [ways to organize society] for you" (Stalin [my edit]). In a paradise there is no shortage of anything and everyone has whatever they wish. Not the case for the real world we live in. Take it or leave it.

Well that’s a non-sequitur. The idea that the only other approach is an unattainable paradise is nonsense. There are so many different approaches in operation on this planet right now after all.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#332

Post by jelsisi »

barry-cotter wrote: post #85
nradov wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then the smart choice for any applicant would be to select whichever race checkbox on the form gives the greatest advantage. Since race is an artificial social construct with no clear objective definition there's nothing wrong with hacking the system to your advantage. Or just leave it blank.

They’ll just look at your family name and make an educated guess based on school demographics and your hobbies, or look you out or parents up on social media. They’re not stupid. They know who they’re discriminating against

What if you are adopted? There is no way an admissions officer has the time to internet stalk each applicant.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#333

Post by wolverine876 »

barry-cotter wrote: post #139
wolverine876 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> And the elite universities have acted on it, and many of their new classes are very different. > No less elitist though. The idea of a selective college is elitist. What does that mean? By that definition, everything selective is 'elitist', including my high school wrestling team. By non-elitist, we generally mean it's not biased in favor of the people who are already in society's elite. Some top colleges now admi…

> Some top colleges now admit much more economically and ethnically diverse students. Yes, there are lots more black and Hispanic students than before, and since the universities refuse to share the data we can’t be sure that this increase in diversity mostly means more children of Nigerian doctors and Colombian lawyers, mostly paying full international student fees but that’s the way to bet. Regarding economic diver…

> Harvard[1], Yale[2], Princeton[3] Stanford[4] all have average family incomes above $160,000.

That doesn't tell us if the economic diversity is increasing or decreasing. My understanding is that it is significantly increasing for (at least some) elite schools, but I don't have cites so ...

> Selecting by standardized test scores would result in a substantially less socially elite student body than the current system.

That is certainly counter to the general wisdom, which is why (as I understand it) they stopped requiring the tests. The tests were considered biased toward the socially elite, and IIRC there was plenty of research behind it, because the elite have the time and money (tutors, classes, etc.) to prepare test-taking skills - which is not a skill the colleges seek - and the questions were written about elite culture (e.g., 'You are sailing your yacht into the wind ...').

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#334

Post by wolverine876 »

rejectedandsad wrote: post #135
wolverine876 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> And the elite universities have acted on it, and many of their new classes are very different. > No less elitist though. The idea of a selective college is elitist. What does that mean? By that definition, everything selective is 'elitist', including my high school wrestling team. By non-elitist, we generally mean it's not biased in favor of the people who are already in society's elite. Some top colleges now admi…

I mean, yeah that is elitist especially because the point of college is education not to compete together as a team. I went to CC in high school and a non selective engineering school. I’ve seen non-elitist and non-elite institutions.

> that is elitist especially because the point of college is education not to compete together as a team

I don't understand how the latter implies the former ?

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#335

Post by WalterBright »

oblio wrote: post #270
WalterBright wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> good mentorship in preparing my applications I don't get this. Why does one need mentorship in filling out an application. I got mine in the mail, filled them out, and sent them in. It never occurred to me I needed someone to guide me. My dad (MIT) did tell me many years earlier what was necessary to get into MIT: 1. straight A's 2. high SAT scores 3. an achievement in extracurricular activities (MIT rejected me.)…

> I don't get this. Why does one need mentorship in filling out an application. I got mine in the mail, filled them out, and sent them in. It never occurred to me I needed someone to guide me. > My dad (MIT) did tell me many years earlier what was necessary to get into MIT: 1. straight A's 2. high SAT scores 3. an achievement in extracurricular activities > (MIT rejected me.) Aren't you confirming that mentorship is…

Good question. Although rejected by MIT, Harvard, and Stanford, I was accepted by Caltech, Dartmouth, and Johns Hopkins.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#336

Post by wolverine876 »

tootie wrote: post #328
wolverine876 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the liberal cry of student loan forgiveness What if we dropped the inflammatory political attack and just talked about loan forgiveness? Can an idea or anything else be depoliticized. And it does have some benefits, in addition to that drawback. I'm not sure about the extent or nature of it - many leading colleges reduce their prices to get the students in the door - has anyone studied it?

I count myself as a liberal but also a wonky liberal. The fact the progressive agitators don't have sound evidence for the validity of their ideas beyond number of retweets bugs the hell out of me. Student loan forgiveness would most likely be a net positive it's just going to be quite expensive for relatively little reward. Incremental wins on health care and progressive taxation will be much simpler and more benefi…

You're a "wonky liberal", but it's the lack of sound evidence for progressive ideas that bothers you? Issues like climate change? Mass incarceration? Racism? Universal health care? Vaccinating people and wearing masks (not a position limited to progressives)? There's not another part of the political spectrum that lacks sound evidence?

That's a bit mind-boggling, but not the first time I've seen it. My hypothesis: Middle-ground liberals are intimidated by abusive conservatives, but they feel safe criticizing progressives. You won't get flamed on HN, for example, for what you posted.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#337

Post by eternalban »

_vvhw wrote: post #327
eternalban wrote: post #34

> One of the great puzzles of American society is the position of the Ivy League. It is a bastion of privilege and power, and yet full of left-leaning professors who one might imagine would favor the redistribution of wealth. Re-imagining social norms -- not a conservative predisposition -- has nothing to do with redistributing wealth. It is precisely the requirement for a shared mindset, or a demonstration of willin…

Hey @eternalban, this is completely unrelated but I've been wanting to get in touch with you for some time regarding Viewstamped Replication. We've exchanged a few comments about it in the past, and there are going to be some developments around VR that I think you would be really excited about.

Hi there, Joran. Thanks for the heads-up; I'll get in touch.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#338

Post by SantalBlush »

rkk3 wrote: post #231
zumu wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are arguing that elite institution's goal is to prepare entry into polite society not to provide a liberal education. Not quite what I'm getting at. My point is more that the value proposition of the undergraduate programs of Ivy Leagues is partly the elite social circle you buy into. Secondly, some of these ideas of "fixing" Ivy League admissions would just send those circles elsewhere, because rich families…

> Not quite what I'm getting at. My point is more that the value proposition of the undergraduate programs of Ivy Leagues is partly the elite social circle you buy into. Being trained for an elite social circle is the entire value proposition of a finishing school, not sure where you see a disagreement. > Secondly, some of these ideas of "fixing" Ivy League admissions would just send those circles elsewhere, because…

>Being trained for an elite social circle is the entire value proposition of a finishing school, not sure where you see a disagreement.

Gaining access to elite social circles is not the same thing as being trained for those circles. There are plenty of institutions that enable elite networking that have nothing to do with finishing school, so it's a false equivalence.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#339

Post by AnimalMuppet »

rejectedandsad wrote: post #138
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think that's relevant? The post you replied to was talking about Harvard, and the article was talking about the Ivy League. Has the number of Harvards increased? Has the Ivy League expanded very much?

Because there are lots of opportunities to get an education that aren’t nearly as selective. The number of total slots has increased considerably. I think they should build more UCs and more UTs and A&Ms etc but to a great extent they already have and increased the class sizes to boot.

True. But we weren't talking about getting an education. The article is about Ivy League, and the immediate antecedent was about Harvard. Sure, you can get an education anywhere. But Harvard and the rest of the Ivy League are all about prestige and social connections. You aren't going to get that at A&M.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#340

Post by mlyle »

devnonymous wrote: post #247
mlyle wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a difference between cramming someone into a caste in perpetuity and ... them having a childhood where they're exposed to job skills and study habits that somewhat favor a certain career because that's what their parent does. My kids saw a whole lot more of "how technology works" and mathematics during elementary school than most kids. A lawyer's kid probably heard a lot more of argument, rhetoric, an…

> the lawyer's kid could go do technology and my kid could grow up to be a lawyer-- it's just a somewhat less likely outcome. And what would be the likelyhood of the child of a single mom working 2 unskilled jobs to be either of those? Like I mentioned in a different comment, Systematic barriers exist without being consciously built and are then perpetuated as just the natural way of things.

Obviously paths out of poverty need to be improved-- and everyone given as much of a hand up as possible.

And, what you're saying is a bit orthogonal to what was discussed here: attaining social mobility for everyone doesn't need to erase familial proclivities towards certain professions. In your eagerness to speak harshly to everyone else here, I think you're missing that what others are discussing is not what you're attacking.

Indeed, uh... I left a tech career where I averaged making 7 figures a year to run youth programs and help kids from non-engineering backgrounds-- including a large share of disadvantaged kids-- into having many of the same kinds of advantages my kids do in being able to imagine an engineering career and learn basic skills and the details of the path at an early age.

So, please don't lecture me about systematic barriers. You don't need to tear down family traditions and passing down of skills to greatly reduce inequity: you just need to ensure that everyone gets a reasonable chance at a path upwards. Some can show up in my programs and become engineers and mathematicians; others can go in someone else's speech program and become marketers and lawyers; other, more fortunate people, can lean on familial upbringing; and yet others can choose something other than the path of least resistance and do something less probable.

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