As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen • Hacker News Board

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#61

Post by krapp » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:48 PM UTC

newfriend wrote: post #50

f38zf5vdt wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the 1880s to 2000 this may have been the case, but I don't think it is anymore. Any country with public health insurance that is decent is more attractive than the US. People are not blind, they see Americans dying of diabetes because they can't afford insulin that they attempted to crowdfund. [1] The US has evolved into a modern dystopia under the first-past-the-post system and cloture in the senate. I think th…

> The US has evolved into a modern dystopia > America's democracy may not even be a democracy > Republicans are currently digging themselves in to remove as much democracy Here's the ideological intensity that the article mentioned. This is delusional. The smartest, most driven people still come to the US to start businesses and seek fortune, because it's the best place in the world to do so.

Everything f38zf5vdt said and that you've quoted here can be true (at least subjectively) while your own reply is also true. You're not actually addressing or contradicting their arguments, such as they are, just declaring them categorically invalid because "capitalism."

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#62

Post by bdv5 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:49 PM UTC

newfriend wrote: post #50

f38zf5vdt wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the 1880s to 2000 this may have been the case, but I don't think it is anymore. Any country with public health insurance that is decent is more attractive than the US. People are not blind, they see Americans dying of diabetes because they can't afford insulin that they attempted to crowdfund. [1] The US has evolved into a modern dystopia under the first-past-the-post system and cloture in the senate. I think th…

> The US has evolved into a modern dystopia > America's democracy may not even be a democracy > Republicans are currently digging themselves in to remove as much democracy Here's the ideological intensity that the article mentioned. This is delusional. The smartest, most driven people still come to the US to start businesses and seek fortune, because it's the best place in the world to do so.

In other words the opportunists come to the US. The most selfish and greedy. The results speak for themselves.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#63

Post by icelancer » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:49 PM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #51

wyager wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “science” most people believe (more accurately called scientism) is an aspect of the state secular religion.

It’s interesting seeing this point, which has been around the internet for at least a decade now, start to get printed in what are otherwise mainstream publications these days. I don’t know that I buy it, but I certainly understand and see the merit of the argument.

"Believe science."

Vox and others stealth-editing articles, people yelling at you if you don't blindly believe the CDC/WHO, etc.

Science by its very nature is heretical, questioning, skeptical. "Belief" in science is exactly what we should not be doing, yet is pushed by the academic elites.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#64

Post by jltsiren » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:49 PM UTC

FridayoLeary wrote: post #9

>Immigrants to America tend to become American; emigrants to other countries from America tend to stay American. Is that true, or just the authors' speculation? Although it is easily explained. Everyone wants to be American because the USA, of all the countries in the world offers the greatest opportunities to the greatest number of people. They are the top of the food chain, in less nationalistic terms. (i'm not Ame…

Things may look a bit different from a (West) European perspective. I know enough people who used to live in the US but left, partly because they did not want to inflict US citizenship upon their children. Among all wealthy countries, US citizenship is probably the least desirable one if you don't plan to live there permanently.

In any case, the expat/immigrant situation is familiar to many Europeans as well. The real difference is that most European countries are nation states, while the US is a land of immigrants and their descendants. "American" is an adopted identity. You become American if you have lived in the US long enough and consider yourself American. In contrast, "German" is an assigned identity. You are German if other Germans generally see you as German. You cannot become fully integrated into a nation state as long as other people pay attention to your origins.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#65

Post by remarkEon » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:49 PM UTC

freshhawk wrote: post #25

Uh ... is it news to people that american nationalism is a very religious belief system? It isn't to outsiders, I definitely heard this comparison made when I was in school ... which was the 90's. This also feels more like americans adjusting to having explicit ideological beliefs in the first place, since the decades-long political monoculture is breaking up. There is an interesting religious feel to party affiliati…

>Uh ... is it news to people that american nationalism is a very religious belief system?

I think the "news" here, such as there actually is any, is that modern secular progressivism has adopted (transplanted?) many religious notions from e.g. Catholicism, and the comparison bothers people because the left prides itself on being anti-religious. American Nationalism has pretty much always been tied to Christianity given the history of the country, so yeah it's not surprising at all to point that out.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#66

Post by OJFord » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:49 PM UTC

rsj_hn wrote: post #49

ardit33 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. when I lived in Sweden, I noticed that Swedes in general have less stuff. Smaller housing, fewer cars, less ability to buy stuff, and even go out. The average engineer salary was almost half (about 60%) of those in NYC and SF, while prices coffee/going out in Stockholm were almost the same as in NYC. Rent prices were lower though. But, their quality of life seemed higher overall. Less stressful in general, more…

> If you are a blue collar or unskilled worker, Sweden would have been better, The problem here is that for the Swedes to enjoy their social benefits, they cannot afford to have too many low skilled workers. The swedish economy is a high skilled economy, perhaps the highest skilled in the world. There are very few low-skill jobs, unlike the US which has an army of low skilled workers filling low skilled jobs. This is…

> The swedish economy is a high skilled economy, perhaps the highest skilled in the world. There are very few low-skill jobs, unlike the US which has an army of low skilled workers filling low skilled jobs. This is why the U.S. is able to absorb so many low skilled migrants whereas Sweden is having enormous problems finding jobs for their low skilled migrants.

How is that not backwards?

If you have 'an army of low skilled workers' then there's no room 'to absorb so many low skilled migrants', surely?

If you have 'a high-skilled economy' then surely you are 'having enormous problems' filling your low-skilled jobs, and welcome migrants?

Indeed, isn't Sweden famously highly accepting of migrants and in particular refugees? Presumably skewed low-skilled if at all?

(Neither Swedish nor American, so not pushing an agenda, just commenting. :))

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#67

Post by andrewmcwatters » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:50 PM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #51

wyager wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “science” most people believe (more accurately called scientism) is an aspect of the state secular religion.

It’s interesting seeing this point, which has been around the internet for at least a decade now, start to get printed in what are otherwise mainstream publications these days. I don’t know that I buy it, but I certainly understand and see the merit of the argument.

There's a difference between speculation and practicing belief, and what I see non-religous Americans practice is secular belief--that is--scientism. "Belief" in science. It's not speculation, because if it was, you might see people saying "I don't know, we'll wait and see" more often. Instead, I watch and read about people in America who are convinced of certain outcomes without any thought as to whether or not what they posit is true.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#68

Post by joe_the_user » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:51 PM UTC

papito wrote: post #38

Religion is going away and political affiliation resembles more of a cult. You know, very healthy.

The total number of people identifying as religious in the US is declining. The number of people identifying as evangelical/"born again" is rising.

Of course, it's about the same thing as the religious and non-religious cult-dynamics are somewhat similar.

Of course, it's a product of any "local community" fading away - the moderating influence of random people living near one is fading.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#69

Post by RGamma » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:51 PM UTC

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #27

bwb wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't true if you mean in terms of achieving the classic American dream… Canada, Germany, the Netherlands and others are moving more people out of lower/middle class to middle/upper class as a percentage. I do not know in terms of raw numbers but via % we are behind.

If you move to the USA from the developing world or even Eastern Europe, regardless of what job you do your salary immediately soars above whatever you made in your country of origin. Taxation on many consumer goods is also likely to be lower. (For example, electronics can be expensive elsewhere due to high import duties or VAT.) Of course, cost of living in the USA is also much higher, but nevertheless lots of immig…

At this point I think the EU should just set aside a nice space somewhere and make it a raw capitalist, no taxes, no regulations, no safety net zone.

"Talent" seems to like that environment.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#70

Post by bobthechef » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:51 PM UTC

beaconstudios wrote: post #35

rogerkirkness wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teleological thinking centers in our brain atrophy but remain active even if you denounce religion.

Teleological thinking does not have to be supernatural, as long as you replace the idea of a "will" driving things towards a final state, with the idea of attractors and stable versus unstable states. You can't really deny telos and also believe in evolution as a system that fits species to their environments.

Right, telos is not purely a matter of will, which is a special case. Telos is about the ordering of a thing toward an end. You can't explain efficiently causality without recourse to telos. The fact that the same causes consistently lead to the same effects is a testament to the telos of the things involved.

Unfortunately, most opponents of telos don't really understand what it really means. They seem to hold to a mechanistic/Paleyian view of the world and assume the telos can therefore only be something in some mind external to the universe that directs things according to its purposes but that things themselves lack any intrinsic teleological character. But this is not correct.