As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen • Hacker News Board

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#21

Post by version_five » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:19 PM UTC

bwb wrote: post #15

FridayoLeary wrote: post #9

>Immigrants to America tend to become American; emigrants to other countries from America tend to stay American. Is that true, or just the authors' speculation? Although it is easily explained. Everyone wants to be American because the USA, of all the countries in the world offers the greatest opportunities to the greatest number of people. They are the top of the food chain, in less nationalistic terms. (i'm not Ame…

That isn't true if you mean in terms of achieving the classic American dream… Canada, Germany, the Netherlands and others are moving more people out of lower/middle class to middle/upper class as a percentage. I do not know in terms of raw numbers but via % we are behind.

The "classic american dream" I believe involves being able to move up through hard work. At least in Canada, if we are moving people up class-wise it's by the government subsidizing them more than it is by rewarding hard work. So I believe the GPs point still stands.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#22

Post by rogerkirkness » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:19 PM UTC

wturner wrote: post #3

I wish we had a world where the discernment between science, axiom and ideology was a real thing ironed into the public muscle memory as much as ideology itself. Idealism.

Teleological thinking centers in our brain atrophy but remain active even if you denounce religion.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#23

Post by rogerkirkness » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:19 PM UTC

briefcomment wrote: post #17

People feel the urge to label some one, group, or idea, as bad. I get around this by accepting that I am bad. It helps me see the best in everyone else, and makes me hold myself to really high standards. It is sometimes unpleasant though. It's probably some sort of natural calibration process.

I've come to terms with this by denouncing morals and focusing on ethics.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#24

Post by Swizec » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:19 PM UTC

briefcomment wrote: post #17

People feel the urge to label some one, group, or idea, as bad. I get around this by accepting that I am bad. It helps me see the best in everyone else, and makes me hold myself to really high standards. It is sometimes unpleasant though. It's probably some sort of natural calibration process.

Isn’t this what Catholicism is all about? We are all sinners and terrible people. Therefore we should see the best in fellow human and give money to the church so it can offset our tab with god

I realize most people stick to the “everyone is bad” part and forget that they too are an everyone and gloss over the whole forgiveness and acceptance part.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#25

Post by freshhawk » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:20 PM UTC

Uh ... is it news to people that american nationalism is a very religious belief system?

It isn't to outsiders, I definitely heard this comparison made when I was in school ... which was the 90's.

This also feels more like americans adjusting to having explicit ideological beliefs in the first place, since the decades-long political monoculture is breaking up. There is an interesting religious feel to party affiliation in the US, but nothing particularly exceptional compared to other places. Maybe that's an outsider missing some nuance though.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#26

Post by Causality1 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:21 PM UTC

This is mirrored in the precipitously dropping support for freedom of speech in the US, especially among youth. As ideology becomes more intense heresy becomes less acceptable, and it seems if people can't quell heretical speech with threats of fire and brimstone they'll do it with legislation and police.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#27

Post by Mediterraneo10 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:21 PM UTC

bwb wrote: post #15

FridayoLeary wrote: post #9

>Immigrants to America tend to become American; emigrants to other countries from America tend to stay American. Is that true, or just the authors' speculation? Although it is easily explained. Everyone wants to be American because the USA, of all the countries in the world offers the greatest opportunities to the greatest number of people. They are the top of the food chain, in less nationalistic terms. (i'm not Ame…

That isn't true if you mean in terms of achieving the classic American dream… Canada, Germany, the Netherlands and others are moving more people out of lower/middle class to middle/upper class as a percentage. I do not know in terms of raw numbers but via % we are behind.

If you move to the USA from the developing world or even Eastern Europe, regardless of what job you do your salary immediately soars above whatever you made in your country of origin. Taxation on many consumer goods is also likely to be lower. (For example, electronics can be expensive elsewhere due to high import duties or VAT.) Of course, cost of living in the USA is also much higher, but nevertheless lots of immigrants feel that they have moved up in life just because of the higher wages and consumeristic lifestyle now available to them.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#28

Post by vmception » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:21 PM UTC

dclowd9901 wrote: post #19

vmception wrote: post #6

I think this correlation is related to causation. I think there are registers in people's minds that are simply occupied. Addicts occupy their predisposition to addiction with a single or ever changing way of neglecting their responsibilities and relationships and health, based on simple earliest exposure. Susceptible people occupy their predisposition to susceptibility with religion or fervent ideology, the "choice"…

What a condescending and misanthropic view of people. So we're just paramecia with "registers" waiting for occupation. As with anything, I think the real answer is much more nuanced. 1) This article is making the case that this behavior is universal, when there is no evidence of that. As always has been, there are subsects of any ideology that are ravenous in their dogma. They are always the loudest and get the most…

Because they're "staunch conservatives" or "democrats", as you wrote, because thats what they were exposed to first, not because they had an array of choices set in front of them with no external influence and said "that makes more sense"

The same goes with religion

The same goes with addicts

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#29

Post by akarma » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:22 PM UTC

bwb wrote: post #15

FridayoLeary wrote: post #9

>Immigrants to America tend to become American; emigrants to other countries from America tend to stay American. Is that true, or just the authors' speculation? Although it is easily explained. Everyone wants to be American because the USA, of all the countries in the world offers the greatest opportunities to the greatest number of people. They are the top of the food chain, in less nationalistic terms. (i'm not Ame…

That isn't true if you mean in terms of achieving the classic American dream… Canada, Germany, the Netherlands and others are moving more people out of lower/middle class to middle/upper class as a percentage. I do not know in terms of raw numbers but via % we are behind.

America is certainly the country with the most opportunity for the most people.

A shift that has occurred from the 1950s to present is that there is less of a guarantee of an upper-middle-class lifestyle through a moderate [1] amount of effort.

That easier opportunity, however, was unique to the era. Prior to 1930, immigrants knew that America was a place for exceptionally hard work and tons of opportunity and freedom - that was the American dream. Not high taxation and government-funded class movement from lower-middle to upper-middle.

[1] 40 hours a week, one full-time job for an established corporate company supporting a family

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#30

Post by rejectedandsad » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:22 PM UTC

bwb wrote: post #15

FridayoLeary wrote: post #9

>Immigrants to America tend to become American; emigrants to other countries from America tend to stay American. Is that true, or just the authors' speculation? Although it is easily explained. Everyone wants to be American because the USA, of all the countries in the world offers the greatest opportunities to the greatest number of people. They are the top of the food chain, in less nationalistic terms. (i'm not Ame…

That isn't true if you mean in terms of achieving the classic American dream… Canada, Germany, the Netherlands and others are moving more people out of lower/middle class to middle/upper class as a percentage. I do not know in terms of raw numbers but via % we are behind.

Yet people in most of Western Europe (discounting Switzerland and Luxembourg and maybe Norway) are objectively poorer than even the poorest American states.