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Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

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Re: Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

#61

Post by falkd »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #57
jfengel wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "perception" of voter fraud in the US is itself entirely a fraud, created to allow rules that make voting harder. Mechanisms like mandatory voting and greater access to polling places (and holidays on voting day) are exactly the opposite of what is desired by those talking about voter fraud. So while there is much talk of voter fraud, those options are always off the table. Voter fraud just isn't a significant th…

Perception is everything in a society. Police can't be everywhere, and the stability of the system is maintained by everyone accepting the legitimacy of a certain political structure. There may not actually be fraud, but strengthening the election system wouldn't hurt, and it would calm those who think there is and help stabilize the system during a tumultuous time in our country's history.

Strengthening the system can hurt though, if it discourages people from voting in the name of security.

And putting in stricter voting controls will not stop people from crying foul. These people aren't working off the facts in the first place, so what difference would it make? If their people don't win they'll call it rigged. If these laws don't give them the result they want, they'll continue to claim fraud until they get enough of an advantage to ensure victory.

Re: Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

#62

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

falkd wrote: post #61
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perception is everything in a society. Police can't be everywhere, and the stability of the system is maintained by everyone accepting the legitimacy of a certain political structure. There may not actually be fraud, but strengthening the election system wouldn't hurt, and it would calm those who think there is and help stabilize the system during a tumultuous time in our country's history.

Strengthening the system can hurt though, if it discourages people from voting in the name of security. And putting in stricter voting controls will not stop people from crying foul. These people aren't working off the facts in the first place, so what difference would it make? If their people don't win they'll call it rigged. If these laws don't give them the result they want, they'll continue to claim fraud until t…

Common sense reforms like voter ID laws and paper ballots don't discourage people from voting. They are commonly used in most functioning democracies around the world.

Re: Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

#63

Post by atatatat »

ChrisRR wrote: post #14

As long as the US keeps treating politics like it's a sport to be won by your team, and remain willfully ignorant of how big corporations actively run their country, it's not going to improve.

Thanks, big media conglomerates and tech companies promoting them, all owned by partisan Congresspeople!

Re: Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

#64

Post by atatatat »

arbitrage wrote: post #50
saba2008 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, two party system proved to be stable in long term, while ensuring rotation in government.

you're gonna need a reference for that statement champ, cause that frankly doesn't pass the smell test.

You have COVID-19.

Re: Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

#65

Post by jfengel »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #62
falkd wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strengthening the system can hurt though, if it discourages people from voting in the name of security. And putting in stricter voting controls will not stop people from crying foul. These people aren't working off the facts in the first place, so what difference would it make? If their people don't win they'll call it rigged. If these laws don't give them the result they want, they'll continue to claim fraud until t…

Common sense reforms like voter ID laws and paper ballots don't discourage people from voting. They are commonly used in most functioning democracies around the world.

And common sense reforms like longer hours and more polling places? Those are also used in most functioning democracies, but bills for voter ID nearly always do precisely the opposite, e.g.:

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/05/29/texas-voting-restric...

It creates the perception that it has nothing to do with ensuring the quality of the vote at all.

Re: Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

#66

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

jfengel wrote: post #65
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common sense reforms like voter ID laws and paper ballots don't discourage people from voting. They are commonly used in most functioning democracies around the world.

And common sense reforms like longer hours and more polling places? Those are also used in most functioning democracies, but bills for voter ID nearly always do precisely the opposite, e.g.: https://www.texastribune.org/2021/05/29/texas-voting-restric... It creates the perception that it has nothing to do with ensuring the quality of the vote at all.

What you say is true. It's also not what I suggested.

With anything political, you can almost always find politicians contorting them for their own benefit. That doesn't mean the underlying concept is bad, only the contortion is bad.

Re: Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

#67

Post by nairboon »

saba2008 wrote: post #51
nairboon wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way is a two party system more stable than a multi-party system?

Multiparty system has failure mode, when one party balloons in size, either by aggressive use of populist rhetoric (NSDAP) or by merging several smaller parties (United Russia). At this point rest either have to unite (producing two party system), or become irrelevant (producing single party system, opening way to totalitarian or authoritarian regime).

So the two party system is the result of a failed multiparty system. This doesn't seem to be an advantage of the two party system. Also the two party system can balloon into a single party regime. We probably need a proper definition on "stable" here.

Re: Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

#68

Post by leetcrew »

jfengel wrote: post #59
ludamad wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder about this - some have felt this under President $FOO but $FOO still had to concede to a loss or term limits. I feel like actual change of power is important, and the US still has this while a lot of the world is losing it

The US messed around with losing it, too. It didn't end up happening, but it has edged closer and closer for the past couple of decades. The system has twice produced a result that was clearly against the popular preference, and most recently the losing candidate took numerous measures to attempt to make it a third. Both sides have significant doubt about whether the mechanisms used to count votes are accurate, and i…

> The system has twice produced a result that was clearly against the popular preference, and most recently the losing candidate took numerous measures to attempt to make it a third.

the popular vote is not the popular preference. it's just the total number of people who voted for each candidate under a set of rules where that number doesn't matter. the popular vote would likely look quite different if the popular vote decided the election. people who live in overwhelmingly red or blue states often don't bother voting in presidential elections outside of the primaries.

Re: Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

#69

Post by saba2008 »

nairboon wrote: post #67
saba2008 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Multiparty system has failure mode, when one party balloons in size, either by aggressive use of populist rhetoric (NSDAP) or by merging several smaller parties (United Russia). At this point rest either have to unite (producing two party system), or become irrelevant (producing single party system, opening way to totalitarian or authoritarian regime).

So the two party system is the result of a failed multiparty system. This doesn't seem to be an advantage of the two party system. Also the two party system can balloon into a single party regime. We probably need a proper definition on "stable" here.

I would call it tempered (forced to compromise on it's nicer features, like representation, to save core ones, like turnover of power) rather than failed (when even core features are no longer present).

Even if you consider two-party system as failed multiparty one, it has advantage of being already past that bifurcation point. And, considering that alternative route is death of parliamentarianism, it's a nice advantage.

Yes, same failure can happen in two-party system, but chances are different - 'usurper' party has to fight against single opponent, rather than against multiple smaller ones. Question of 'whenever opposition can unite' is trivially true if opposition consists of single party.

Re: Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

#70

Post by dctoedt »

syshum wrote: post #8
LatteLazy wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Careful, even fox news is right sometimes. I'm a brit, we're not doing much better than the US. But no one really takes the US seriously as a democracy. Partly for the reason you yourself give: propoganda and fake news. Partly because the US system is just such a mess (the senate has so much power and seems designed to be antidemocratic for a start). Trump and Jan 6th are just the icing on the cake.

>>> (the senate has so much power and seems designed to be antidemocratic for a start). That is because it is.... and that is a GOOD thing The Senate is designed to be the State's (i.e the state governments) representative in the federal government, We are a union of 50 independent states, people seem to forget that. it is the United *States* of America, The House of Representatives is the People i.e the citizens cha…

> We are a union of 50 independent states, people seem to forget that.

We haven't forgotten it because it's not the case: First, the Constitution's opening words are "We, the People of the United States," NOT "The States of the United States ...." Second, the issue was conclusively settled at Appomattox and with the ensuing enactments of the 14th and 15th Amendments.

> The Senate is designed to be the State's (i.e the state governments) representative in the federal government

In the modern era that might still be viable if the Senate's power were only to veto enactments by the House, perhaps by a supermajority vote — and with that veto power being waived after X days — instead of what it is now, i.e., a roadblock even for popular House bills. The old "cooling saucer" notion seems outdated.

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