Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing? • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#801

Post by coldtea » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:19 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #726

7steps2much wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? Just because you are a tech worker doesn't have to mean you love your job. Lots of companies fill your day with so much bureaucracy and unrelated stuff to your actual tech work you might hate your job none the less. Or maybe you actually get to work on technology most/all of the time, doesn't mean you enjoy it. Sure, working in R&D is probably pretty awesome for most tech guys there, but what about the guy mainta…

Jesus Christ. Yeah, I said that’s a fine attitude to have. My point is you can either give a shit about your job or not. If you don’t, don’t expect to do anything innovative or produce a lot of value. If you’re cool with that, so am I. Just don’t complain in a few decades when you have to cut back social programs.

>My point is you can either give a shit about your job or not. If you don’t, don’t expect to do anything innovative or produce a lot of value.

You seem to have conflated working overtime and not taking vacations with "giving a shit about your job".

Sure, not giving a shit about your job wont give you innovations. But working overtime and not taking vacations wont give you innovations either. It's totally orthogonal (if not detrimental to healthy worklife and innovation) issue to whether you're passionate about your job or not.

Case in point:

(a) No innovations come out of the hundreds of millions of Americans who work BS jobs, think them as BS jobs, but still being culturally or openly forced to work overtime and to only take meagre vacations. No innovations come from office drones who share all that, and Japan has not made any dent in CS/IT, despite working even more and having worse life balance than Americans. Working overtime is good for production lines, mindlessly churning out stuff.

(b) Innovations come just fine from companies with a healthy work-life balance. Heck, most of the great CS and IT innovations, that in substance and impact no FAANG or BS "unicorn" ever matched, came from places like IBM, Bell Labs and the Xerox Parc, of the 60s and 70s, great places to work, with good work life balance, and research focus -- not toxic overtime environments.

The idea that innovation and liking your job is not compatible with worklife balance or EU-style vacations, is a toxic and dangerous to humanity (ito ndividuals and their families, for starters), idea.

It makes for good profit and docile workforces though. Whatever makes the US employer sleep well at night...

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#802

Post by jandrewrogers » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

dukeyukey wrote: post #511

reader_mode wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a thriving tech scene in Europe and we do quite well! Is there really ? I see attempts at copying the US tech scene, but a lot of it seems structured to suck money out of government funds and programs. I see very little private investment. Just recently I talked to a local VC, in a casual chat about how they started their fund I found out they pulled money out of a EU fund, they had to put up like 25% of t…

Silicon Valley is top, we all know that. But in terms of startup funding, after the SFBA and Beijing comes London. In terms of startup-friendliness, London typically beats every US hub except the SFBA, and occasionally ties with NYC. I'll give you places like Stockholm and Amsterdam don't quite hit those heights, but still have healthy ecosystems going for them. But it's difficult to describe the 'EU' way of doing th…

London is definitely better than the continent for startups, and you can reasonably build a successful startup there (I have). However, in my experience any of the major US tech hubs still have significant competitive advantages versus London for starting a company.

The business and culture of tech startups is just a really mature and highly developed industry in the US. It started in Silicon Valley but these days it is spread across several cities, and there is more domain specialization by city including Silicon Valley.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#803

Post by j_wtf_all_taken » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #672

j_wtf_all_taken wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just hope it stays that way. I fear that all the cynics blaming everything that's bad on politicians and the EU (instead of the voters putting those politicians in power) will eventually degrade trust in that in itself nicely working system ... and then, what's the point defending that system against the populists and fascists wanting to take over? They can't be that much worse ... :-(( [same with media that does a…

> I fear that all the cynics blaming everything that's bad on politicians and the EU (instead of the voters putting those politicians in power) Yes. Last year I started playing an browser game about running your own commpany and got interested in economics. If capitalism can be fun inside a game, how come it isn't fun in real life? After all a game that disenfranchises new players and prevents them from playing the g…

> The EU has to follow similar actions but that requires voters to not choose right wing populism or the same old party they voted for 20 years straight

Yeah, but it seems like voters tend to vote for the same party so long that it kind of kills the competition (if I know that I'll be re-elected no matter what, why behave?), and then suddenly voters get pissed because they don't get ... something, whatever, not sure they know themselves ... and vote for populists.

But every now and then the times are just right that some competent government is elected that implements some well thought-through laws, that have sufficient positive effects over decades to compensate for all that. At least until now.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#804

Post by j_wtf_all_taken » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #704

j_wtf_all_taken wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your logic is flawed. That happens when following some ideology.

It may be flawed but at least I provide arguments for my logic while you just spam this thread with "Europe good because social system, USA bad because corporations"

Yeah, however, what you should provide is evidence, not arguments. With "logic", anything can explained, if your logic is just skewed enough.

My evidence? Reality.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#805

Post by meheleventyone » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:38 PM UTC

kmlx wrote: post #420

meheleventyone wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where was DeepMind founded?

in London, UK, which is a different beast than the continent.

Still part of Europe and until recently the EU as well.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#806

Post by tagfowufe » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:39 PM UTC

brainless wrote: post #95

I am from India and for the first 8-10 years of my post-college life I drank all the "glory" reporting of the American style of doing business. I tried doing it myself. I fell apart, suffered silently for years. Moved to Germany, went through counseling at the end of that period. Learnt that life is a lot more than silly startup games. No matter what anyone tells me, I have seen it myself first hand - I want a happie…

My first comment ever here is for thanking you for posting these words. I find them truly educational and eerily reassuring.

I'm starting my career in this whole world after two years at a really innovative community college, and I've always resonated with your attitude, albeit I don't see it verbalized often enough on the Net.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#807

Post by jandrewrogers » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:40 PM UTC

developer93 wrote: post #645

zingar wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's strange but true. I live in the UK and I think I could get paid 3-5x more in the US. But even though I'm annoyed by that pay gap, I will never work without healthcare and only two weeks of PTO. At least job satisfaction doesn't change, I work with startups that interest me and I get to hack on a stimulating open source project. I'm just healthy while I do it.

I believe in some US states there is exactly zero legal pto

That's the case in all US States as far as I know. Nonetheless, every job I've had, in multiple States, going back well over a decade had 4-6 weeks of PTO.

The customary minimum is 2 weeks but most companies offer more and you can negotiate for more.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#808

Post by j_wtf_all_taken » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:42 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #691

j_wtf_all_taken wrote: post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but at least we have those rules that VW could then break. And the negative effects of social media affect me if I use it or not.

>Yeah but at least we have those rules that VW could then break What kind of logic is this, that breaking rules is fine since at least we have them? Honestly, that sounds like a child who just wants something his way rather than a logical argument. What's the point of rules if you don't bother enforcing them? Speaking of rules, do you know the ones Wirecard blatantly broke and BaFin not only ignored the but actively…

You really, really have to start reading what others write and respond to that, instead of making stuff up. Where did anyone hint at German companies being saints?

But yes of course its a difference if companies can just pollute however they want, or if you have rules that say they can't but companies break those rules. In the latter case, when they're caught, they can be punished. And under Trump, lots of rules protecting the environment were eliminated.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#809

Post by j_wtf_all_taken » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #683

throw0101a wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Due to that, statistically, Europe does worse than the US wealth inequality […] Do you have a source for the statistic that show this? Another comment mentioned Gini. Piketty uses the share of the top percentile (1%) or decile (10%): * https://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/pikettys-inequal... * https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/03/pikettys-new-... The US isn't the worst in the world, but it is certa…

Both of those citations appear to be looking at income inequality measures rather than wealth inequality measures.

Yeah but what pays for rent and food? Income.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#810

Post by jandrewrogers » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

zingar wrote: post #276

bennybob wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also wages in tech in the EU are laughably bad compared to USA. I'm in the UK, same problem. Yet everyone seems to think that a couple weeks more holiday makes up for it.

It's strange but true. I live in the UK and I think I could get paid 3-5x more in the US. But even though I'm annoyed by that pay gap, I will never work without healthcare and only two weeks of PTO. At least job satisfaction doesn't change, I work with startups that interest me and I get to hack on a stimulating open source project. I'm just healthy while I do it.

2 weeks of PTO is the customary minimum in the US, and there is no legal minimum at all. Nonetheless, many people at good jobs receive more like 4-5 weeks of PTO. It really depends on where you work. I've never had less than 4 weeks of PTO at any vaguely tech-oriented company.