Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing? • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#521

Post by tluyben2 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:06 AM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #481

tluyben2 wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That in Thailand that would cost almost nothing. And personally, it is much nicer on probably almost everything besides the small issue that the country is completely owned by the military. But yes, you are right: rich is also better in NL. But it is not 1000x better: it is just better. Subjective of course; if you enjoy driving McLarens into trees then rich is a lot better. I have the feeling, and again, I do not li…

> I walked (yes, strange EU thing where one uses legs instead of wheels) through some part of Fort Lauderdale and it looked like a bloody war zone. I could not live in a country that permits that. Your snarky comment is just pretentious cherry-picking. I can walk you through some neighborhoods in France, Sweden and the UK where you'd also wouldn't want to live.

The snark was only because of the American induced (and we have it here now) driving everywhere, even if it is a few 100m (I have been all across the US many times and people find it weird if you walk anywhere unless you are actually hiking in nature). It cannot be really denied if everyone would do their shopping by foot (meaning you would need to do multiple runs a week) you would be healthier and have better quality of life right? That was the norm here but now people get into their SUVs and drive.

And it is not cherry picking: I know those places too: I do not count the UK as that is another Anglo Saxon country so it seems to copy the US values faster (like Australia where the best city in the world to live apparently, Melbourne, I literally trip over the drug addicts in every street and I go there a lot). And yes, there are places enough I would not want to live but they do not look quite as bad as some things I have seen in the US which were more akin to New Delhi. Maybe I did not travel enough and also not the point; if you are the richest country in the world you simply cannot allow that. In my opinion of course.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#522

Post by ido » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:06 AM UTC

sgt wrote: post #496

pembrook wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Europe’s entire social safety net is at risk if their private sector can’t generate enough wealth to support it. Given their declining populations and anti-immigrant tendencies inflamed by the refugee crisis in many of its member states, it doesn’t look good for the EU’s future.

It's interesting you should note anti-immigration tendencies. I believe those tendencies are fueled by ridiculously liberal immigration laws that essentially allows far too many asylum seekers into Europe. That's why you now see ghettos and zones where the police don't go in France, Sweden and even UK. I am not against immigration but I think Europe should be seriously reconsidering non-western immigration as it will…

    I am not against immigration but I think Europe should 
    be seriously reconsidering non-western immigration as 
    it will simply clash.

I don't get why you want to filter them by "non-western"? I have arab, african, indian & east-asian friends here in Berlin that I am sure are net-postives for society. Why not set the filters to something more directly related to what you want to achieve? Such as education level, having a job offer waiting, no criminal record, etc (Germany's blue card program already does more or less that).

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#523

Post by j_wtf_all_taken » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:08 AM UTC

sgt wrote: post #496

pembrook wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Europe’s entire social safety net is at risk if their private sector can’t generate enough wealth to support it. Given their declining populations and anti-immigrant tendencies inflamed by the refugee crisis in many of its member states, it doesn’t look good for the EU’s future.

It's interesting you should note anti-immigration tendencies. I believe those tendencies are fueled by ridiculously liberal immigration laws that essentially allows far too many asylum seekers into Europe. That's why you now see ghettos and zones where the police don't go in France, Sweden and even UK. I am not against immigration but I think Europe should be seriously reconsidering non-western immigration as it will…

> That's why you now see ghettos and zones where the police don't go in France, Sweden and even UK.

That's failed policy by the people that are already here, not the fault of the immigrants.

> I think Europe should be seriously reconsidering non-western immigration as it will simply clash

Yeah ... wait what? That's kinda ... what? Why? What's the problem with that?

So you don't seem to know, but it worked out very well with the middle eastern immigrants in Germany from 2015. Integration into the workforce worked better than expected, many pay taxes and stuff.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#524

Post by effie » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:08 AM UTC

thow-01187 wrote: post #375

oblio wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That only shows the evolution, what are the actual numbers?

Let's just say...that the data doesn't exactly support the thesis that the lack of venture funding is a drag on Europe's productivity https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/labor-productivity-per-ho...

Very strange to see UK and South Korea so low.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#525

Post by gjhh244 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:10 AM UTC

pembrook wrote: post #476

j_wtf_all_taken wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it nice that a large part of the European economy consists of stuff helping people (the "state activities" you mention) vs. the large part of the US economy that consists of hurting people?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Europe’s entire social safety net is at risk if their private sector can’t generate enough wealth to support it. Given their declining populations and anti-immigrant tendencies inflamed by the refugee crisis in many of its member states, it doesn’t look good for the EU’s future.

Few European people oppose migration of educated workers. Rather it's about asylum seekers who often arrive here illegally, and typically lack sufficient education to do well in our job markets, leading to very high unemployment rate and other social problems.

Europe has a problem with aging workforce, but it can't be solved by importing people who can't find a job.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#526

Post by j_wtf_all_taken » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:10 AM UTC

ido wrote: post #522

sgt wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting you should note anti-immigration tendencies. I believe those tendencies are fueled by ridiculously liberal immigration laws that essentially allows far too many asylum seekers into Europe. That's why you now see ghettos and zones where the police don't go in France, Sweden and even UK. I am not against immigration but I think Europe should be seriously reconsidering non-western immigration as it will…

I am not against immigration but I think Europe should be seriously reconsidering non-western immigration as it will simply clash. I don't get why you want to filter them by "non-western"? I have arab, african, indian & east-asian friends here in Berlin that I am sure are net-postives for society. Why not set the filters to something more directly related to what you want to achieve? Such as education level, having a…

Because its obviously not about what makes sense ... you don't seem to know but your friends just don't fit our awesome western culture.

I really hate the term "culture" by now.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#527

Post by jopsen » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:10 AM UTC

thow-01187 wrote: post #430

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the entire EU economy grew at the same speed than the US one but not its 500 bigger companies This is literally the article’s point. Europe and the U.S. grew similarly. The U.S. and China produced more large companies. (The Continent’s larger companies also being older than the other two’s.) > supposedly more investment in R&D Not supposedly, factually. The article explicitly states this. It’s the Economist; if you…

Imho, what was happening in the Silicon Valley economy looks much more like displacement of value rather than creation of value (1). Google/Facebook have displaced other ad formats, redirecting money to themselves. AWS have displaced IT technicians in other corporations, redirecting money to themselves. Apple is selling overpriced commodity hardware, redirecting money to themselves. Uber is displacing taxis, redirect…

> Uber is displacing taxis, redirecting money to themselves.

I lived in San Francisco 2013-2018, before Uber I very rarely used taxis -- to/from the airport maybe. Having moved back to Denmark, I again very rarely use taxis.

But when I lived in the US, I used Uber many times each week. Sometimes to/from work.

But taxis in Denmark is easily 5x as expensive, and generally unavailable on-demand.

So now I was forced to buy a car, and call someone if I get a drink.

Point being: Uber certainly replaced taxis, but they also grew the market dramatically. The taxi industry is just a casualty, the pie Uber created is much bigger.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#528

Post by pydry » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:11 AM UTC

j_wtf_all_taken wrote: post #372

pydry wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's changing. A search engine index requires titanic amounts of capital. Likewise so does building a web services platform that can compete. Meanwhile, if you don't have a platform like that to build off you are severely constrained in many other markets. Look at elastic - this is the kind of business that will dry up in the next 5-7 years. It's structurally unable to compete without being part of a major web serv…

What's your point? That letting tech giants taking over just for a little faster innovation is worth it? Maybe the European approach is a little slower, but leads to better results? But then ... what technology was really advanced by companies like Facebook? Except the ad-surveillance-machine and stuff you only need if you run a multi-billion-people "social" network ... the only thing they innovate in is business mod…

My point was only that once an industry matures it starts to consolidate and demand huge amounts of capital to compete.

And, that software is maturing.

In much the same way Japanese automobiles didn't compete with US in the 60s by having a plethora of automobile startups started in peoples' garages. It was done with large companies copying American tech being plowed with lavish subsidies and a protected domestic market.

Europe will likewise not compete with American tech head on with small tech startups either. That ship hasn't quite sailed yet, but I don't think it's far off.

I hope I'm wrong.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#529

Post by Bayart » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:12 AM UTC

Cheap capital and the corresponding large market valuations don't come out of thin air. The corollary is very loose monetary policies and the financialisation of every aspect of the economy to drive capital to the market, in particular pensions. I'm quite sure that's a game most people here are unwilling to play.

The article has a point on the overly complex legislation, and while everybody would like things to be more straightforward in that respect, it'll be hard to convince people that trying to advance incrementally while disrupting as little of the existing legislation possible is the wrong way of doing things.

We don't want to move fast and break things. We already did and it was terrible.

One point that isn't addressed, and that I feel is quite relevant, is the concentration of business networks in particular social circles and particular areas. You have to be in London, Paris and so on to do business. But you can't get there because it's so expensive. I hope the new attitude towards remote working, as well as the wider deployment of fibre (which is now readily available in my cheap rural backwater) helps things out.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#530

Post by refurb » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:12 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #412

refurb wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. It’s the mentality, not the vacation. My job in the US gives 5 weeks vacation per year. You are expected to disconnect and it’s embarrassing if email/text while on leave - people think you’re nuts. But the work attitude is usually “lets do something cool”, “lets solve that problem”, “why can’t we be the best?” versus a work mentality of “i don’t think that will work” and “we’ll never get support for that id…

The work mentality is more like "we're the slaves to the coproration, our lives belong to it". It has nothing to do with “lets do something cool”, “lets solve that problem”, “why can’t we be the best?”. That's easy to see, if one considers that it's not just the much fewer employees working on things they consider cool that try to solve interesting problems and be the best that willingly don't go for vacations. The h…

No, it's clearly not slavery because these are folks who could work anywhere.

The point is - many (not all) Europeans are happy with a 10 to 4 paper pushing role. Butt in seat, collect a paycheck. That's fine. But you can't have that plus innovation and global leadership in entrepreneurship.