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Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

economist.com

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Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#421

Post by j_wtf_all_taken »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #413
j_wtf_all_taken wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> the entire EU economy grew at the same speed than the US one but not its 500 bigger companies > This is literally the article’s point. Europe and the U.S. grew similarly. The U.S. and China produced more large companies. (The Continent’s larger companies also being older than the other two’s.) So Europe did a better job in distributing wealth more equally, while in the US and China you got a massive concentration…

> Europe did a better job in distributing wealth more equally This assumes ex ante a similar quantity of wealth. Europe’s GDP per capita is lower than America’s. Where it’s higher, the growth is slower. The more-even distribution comes at the expense of quality of life or economic power. (Though not for Europe’s well-entrenched multi-generational and often legally-entitled wealthy.) To be clear, I don’t believe in mo…

> The more-even distribution thus comes at the expense of quality of life.

What are you talking about? We have fairer elections, better infrastructure, more social security, everyone's got health insurance, we're not getting shot in school, and also we're not on the way to be ruled by a fascist so ... how exactly are you measuring the quality of life?

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#422

Post by CalRobert »

238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

Having moved to the EU from the US nearly a decade ago I really have to agree - everything happens at a _glacial_ pace. Not just business - everything. Buying a house takes months, getting anything built takes months, medical appointments take months, paperwork for immigration takes _years_, the "grants" from the government for innovation are maybe a few months' pay in the US, and notice periods you have to give your employer are customarily _shockingly_ long. Why the hell should I have to work for 3 months after giving notice?!?!!

The EU gets a lot of things right but starting a company here would be playing on hard mode, to say the least.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#423

Post by nicbou »

refurb wrote: post #253
jamil7 wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This thread is full of people explaining that Europeans are lazy and unproductive workers lacking ambition based on anecdotes of completely normal occurrences like an employee taking a vacation.

Disagree. It’s the mentality, not the vacation. My job in the US gives 5 weeks vacation per year. You are expected to disconnect and it’s embarrassing if email/text while on leave - people think you’re nuts. But the work attitude is usually “lets do something cool”, “lets solve that problem”, “why can’t we be the best?” versus a work mentality of “i don’t think that will work” and “we’ll never get support for that id…

Work is just a paycheque. If they stopped paying me, I'd stop showing up. I really doubt I'll greet the reaper with the regret of not spending more time at the office.

I did cool stuff at work, but without work, I could do much cooler things.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#424

Post by kmlx »

tasogare wrote: post #159
238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

> the low work ethic Incredible to read this... the top-15 of most productive countries [1] are all European save for the US and Australia, which are populated with a huge population of European descent. [1] https://time.com/4621185/worker-productivity-countries/

having lived and worked in Asia, I have to say that table looks weird. i have found no other place in this planet where people work longer and better than certain places in Asia.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#425

Post by j_wtf_all_taken »

okareaman wrote: post #419
j_wtf_all_taken wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every person that ever committed a patch to the Linux Kernel probably has more impact. Not because if the code itself but Linux is just so much more important than Apple, Facebook and Google altogether.

What a weird thing to say since you don't know what code I wrote, but anyway my larger point is all of us programmers and IT workers should be proud of what we have accomplished. We all together made those companies possible. Now the fact that I live here and we're part of a community is just a cherry on top for me, but that part seems to annoy people so I'll never mention it again and keep it as my private enjoyment…

That's why I said "not because if the code itself". But I have a typo there, shit. of, not if.

What community? The one where you have to be rich to be a part of?

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#426

Post by watwut »

linspace wrote: post #211
238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

Your comment would be more interesting without hyperbole. I'm surprised by the low work ethics remark. In my (little) experience I didn't find americans so high on work ethics. It's more like your career is more important to self esteem. This can correlate with being good at work or at posturing.

Americans are willing to work longer hours which is used as proxy for hard work. Which is then coupled with collegues being whole your social network and meetings socialization. Afaik, by all studies, working 10 hours a day wont make you produce more, but it feels like it does.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#427

Post by dependsontheq »

It’s important to see the time effect clearly the internet economy started mostly in The Valley and in that economic network most of the follow up growth happened. Chinas rise produced big companies. What happened is that there is no second or relevant third position in the internet economy and the US companies had a head start.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#428

Post by joelbluminator »

metacritic12 wrote: post #271
ddalex wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand the people in EU are happier, have better social protection, better benefits, better health systems, better consumer protection, better application of rules and laws, they make for more productive employees. Do the shareholders get as rich as fast as in the hyperactive US economy? Not, but the society functions better. I very much prefer the EU.

Uh I think only the consumer protection, benefits, and social protection are clearly true (taken out of direct pay). Rule of law and happier are debatable. Productivity seems false if you define productivity as economic output versus just a redefinition of self-rated relaxation on the job. At a certain point it gets incredibly subjective like which country's citizens are more awesome. And honestly good on you for bei…

My kneejerk reaction was to say you're wrong and of course EU citizens are happier, but thinking deeply about it that's nonsense. North Europe yes, happier by a lot. But if you consider the EU in its entirety, the South (Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece) and the East (Poland, Romania, Bulgaria) bring down the average by a lot. When the economy is down and corrupt no amount of safety nets will help you be happy, you simply won't have a job. So on average I would say happiness levels are about the same, both blocks have very vast regions which are poorer/neglected and where resentment is growing. The state of the economy is one of the most important factors in determining happiness, other things are perceived corruption, equality, freedom and safety. That's why North Europe scores so high but the struggling South despite it's awesome weather and views is not happy at all.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#429

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

tluyben2 wrote: post #295
yoz-y wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major problem in EU is not really starting the companies. Most countries have ways to incorporate by filing a form and sending an email or two. The problem though is financing, French investors for example are really stingy and you won’t get somebody to just throw a few millions at you to see if you succeed. France has decided to build the “French Silicon Valley” multiple times by grouping schools and companies t…

This is the core: enough smart folk, enough ideas etc but people here sit on their money. EU investors invest in sure things and sure things are just not FAANGS when they start out. The appetite for risk is close to 0. You can see this when getting into EU incubators who try to mimic HN: they are absolutely waiting for that thing to happen where they are sure they will have ROI at which moment you can just walk to a…

> EU investors invest in sure things

Which is mostly real-estate

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#430

Post by thow-01187 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #334
satellite2 wrote: post #319

This article is truly bizarre. The main point it makes is that the top 500 US companies grew faster than the top 500 European ones in the last decade or so. But then it quickly mention, without any further analysis, that both their GDP actually grew at a similar pace. So the entire EU economy grew at the same speed than the US one but not its 500 bigger companies. So all else being equals it means that the smaller US…

> the entire EU economy grew at the same speed than the US one but not its 500 bigger companies This is literally the article’s point. Europe and the U.S. grew similarly. The U.S. and China produced more large companies. (The Continent’s larger companies also being older than the other two’s.) > supposedly more investment in R&D Not supposedly, factually. The article explicitly states this. It’s the Economist; if you…

Imho, what was happening in the Silicon Valley economy looks much more like displacement of value rather than creation of value (1).

Google/Facebook have displaced other ad formats, redirecting money to themselves. AWS have displaced IT technicians in other corporations, redirecting money to themselves. Apple is selling overpriced commodity hardware, redirecting money to themselves. Uber is displacing taxis, redirecting money to themselves.

In other words, it's barely above zero-sum game. And US productivity statistics are clear - the aforementioned corporations grew 500%-1000% in their profits and valuations since 2010. Meanwhile, the US productivity has grown by 4.7%. Had the SV tech been a clear net positive to the economy, the productivity growth would look different. When the tech/telecom was truly creating new value (1995-2005), the productivity growth was at 27% that decade.

(1) with notable exceptions: Microsoft really is creating value where one didn't exist before. So is Netflix, Amazon's venerable logistics and Tesla's drive to decrease battery costs

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