Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home • Hacker News Board

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#841

Post by esarbe » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 9:18 AM UTC

k-mcgrady wrote: post #38

marcellus23 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly believable that women don't enjoy dating apps, but I think it's difficult to make the case that it's equally hard for them (in terms of successfully getting a date) when they have thousands of matches and many men I know have none.

Thousands of matches isn’t a good thing. If you ever have the opportunity ask a female friend to show you the kind of messages they get on dating apps. They’re pretty appalling. It genuinely worries me that there are so many creeps out there. The men you know may not be getting many matches but at least the ones they get are more than likely from relatively normal people. If I had to sort through the garbage women do…

It's just numbers game. If you're interested in quick sex and you can send messages to dozens on women with very little effort, you do it. If just one percent signals interest, you already have a win.

Why invest more time and energy than absolutely necessary?

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#842

Post by esarbe » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 9:26 AM UTC

bena wrote: post #60

kogepathic wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> another friend of mine basically refuses to date anymore because he thinks the sort of culture of Tinder dating is a waste of time that favors women disproportionately. My female friends (I'm male) with online dating profiles have shown me their matches and conversations, and it's bleak. They all mostly have an average profile and still receive thousands of likes/hearts/swipes and messages, but the mean amount of e…

Bumble has its own issues. It turns out "making the first move" is anxiety inducing in everyone. What women have done on Bumble is to basically treat the "first move" as an "invitation to treat", a second shot at selecting a guy. Most of those "first moves" are exactly what they say they don't want from guys: simple "Hey"s and "Hello"s. And then they say in their profile that once they say "Hey", you're supposed to r…

> I don't think dating apps/sites favor either sex more so than dating in general does.

It's a force multiplier and the dynamics that are already present in dating in general get reinforced. So you end up with 99% of the women competing for the top 1% males and the remaining 99% males competing for nothing at all because all their advances get ignored.

It's just the result of our reproductive strategies exerting an incredible influence on our behavior, more so than we personally realize.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#843

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 9:32 AM UTC

dcist wrote: post #637

jart wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well maybe they're smart enough to know that, in a world where most things have either been automated or offshored, the only purpose most jobs serve in the grand scheme of things is to increase the velocity of capital. If you had a choice between the fake purpose offered by an office job where you get to be a peon, versus the fake purpose offered by a video game where you get to be a hero: which would you choose?

But a job provides you real money that gives you real options in life. You can't take someone out on a date with your video game points.

[deleted]

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#844

Post by esarbe » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 9:39 AM UTC

ccity88 wrote: post #814

Reading a lot of comments on this thread, I see many that are oblivious and out of touch at best, and disingenuous at worst. I'm 22 and I've been living with my parents my entire life; I have an Ok salary living in London, the reason I haven't taken the next step of moving out is because financially it doesn't make sense. I could get a place tomorrow and have that independence, but I won't be saving anything, and I'l…

> Our generation has it the worst.

Haha. No.

I admit that your generation didn't have a golden spoon shoved in your mouths like the generations from 1950 to 1970, but your generation is far from having it worst.

I do however think that you are on to something when you say that a generation of young men has been disenfranchised. There are no social media campaigns telling young men that they are OK the way you are, no preferential treatment for college or university admission, to preferential treatment in hiring for men, no men-exclusive training courses, ...

This is problematic because it alienates a lot of people and drives them away from a fruitful interaction with society.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#845

Post by dorkwood » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 9:42 AM UTC

treespace88 wrote: post #61

marcellus23 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly believable that women don't enjoy dating apps, but I think it's difficult to make the case that it's equally hard for them (in terms of successfully getting a date) when they have thousands of matches and many men I know have none.

Women are paying a high price in the online dating world. It’s preying on their weakness the same way porn does for men. Most women don’t want to sleep around and have a large number of partners. But tinder leads them to believe that they can find an unrealistic partner. And they get hurt by the small percentage of men that play the online dating game well. Women need a lot more data and time to evaluate a potential…

My experience with Tinder was that all the women I met turned out to be more interested in hooking up than anything else. Is there an app for people who don't even really want to sleep with each other, but would prefer to just hang out and talk? I want to use that one.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#846

Post by TheAdamAndChe » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 9:50 AM UTC

developer93 wrote: post #770

grammarnazzzi wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Women did not create the society that is hurting men emotionally and economically The extreme elements of 3rd wave feminism has influcenced society in ways that unfairly and negatively impact boys. Specifically the concept of "toxic masculinity". Toxic people are toxic. Toxic behaviors are toxic. Toxic people should be shamed and toxic behaviors should be discouraged. Boys should not be shamed for being masculine,…

This is not what toxic masculinity means. It's not saying masculinity is toxic, toxic is a qualifier not a description. It's used to talk about those attitudes which are ascribed by some people to be super masculine, but actually are just unhealthy (like hyper aggression, or the idea, ironically, that men shouldn't ask for help or complain about anything)

The way you phrase a word affects its interpretation. Imagine for a minute if the term "neurotic feminity" was a common thing, and described how anxiety, depression, and other negative aspects of stereotypically female behavior are actually just unhealthy. People would be upset because the phrasing implies that feminity itself is bad, which is wrong.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#847

Post by vsareto » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 9:52 AM UTC

livueta wrote: post #640

vsareto wrote: post #498

Idk, playing video games all day without any responsibilities seems like they’ve straight-up won life. Most of us have to work for that privilege or be born with a trust fund in our name. Only losing side to this path is a lack of romance or intimacy. No one’s likely gonna remember you anyway, for better or worse. Might as well enjoy your time on Earth with some of the most immersive storytelling humanity has invente…

In my experience[0] that's not really true. This comment[1] is pretty on the money. Being a NEET is not a vacation, and playing video games all day is often a means of avoiding confronting the realization that you're a waste of oxygen. Many have substance co-dependencies that function similarly. It's the sort of life that sounds cool as an overworked wagie but gets stale rather quickly, plus a massive helping of sunk…

I mean, there's people who barely do any work while pulling down a decent salary, so I'm not sure who's really the bigger waste of oxygen compared to someone who sits around all day on games. (personally, I disagree with the 'waste of oxygen' viewpoint - life has innate value especially since we're the only intelligent species we know of, even if they aren't valuable in a capitalistic sense).

But it's weird we prefer others being at a bullshit job over just enjoying themselves and not having to work. We'd like to think that everyone who's employed is doing some small part in helping out humanity, but that's definitely not true.

>once one realizes how hard it can be to get back in the saddle.

Is it really that hard though? It can be uncomfortable, sure, but if you can get past that, you're very similar to other people who decide on a later career change, start over in a new place, or are dealing with personal problems later on. The only real struggle is with yourself and being able to admit you're dealing with a problem. Once you do that, most of the stigma falls away except from the harshest critics. The idea that you're 'behind' is very outdated. You can do nothing with your life by working as well.

* This is all from the USA perspective

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#848

Post by TheAdamAndChe » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 9:55 AM UTC

developer93 wrote: post #785

doubleunplussed wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are probably directing this at men, but I've also heard this directed at women who were surprised to find out that working unpleasant jobs full time is actually not the greener grass they thought it was. Or women picking a physical fight only to be shocked at a man fighting back. Or women being surprised at being sentenced to jail when they expected a slap on the wrist. The list goes on.

As a woman, that's a good thing. Equality is equality the bad and the good. But I feel like many people of all genders have a hard time adapting.

But why is equality of outcomes necessary? We see worldwide physical and psychological differences between the sexes, and the reproductive strategies typically used are different. Why shouldn't that reflect in broadly different social norms and roles?

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#849

Post by esarbe » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 9:57 AM UTC

spideymans wrote: post #584

fnord77 wrote: post #175

what do these young men have to look forward to in life? home ownership and having a family probably seem so financially out of reach that kids are not even trying.

I'd suggest this represents the dividing line between Millennials and Generation Z. Millennials (at least those who graduated before the 2008 financial crisis) had legitimate aspirations of home ownership, starting a family, and achieving the typical American Dream milestones. Many of them have not given up those dreams, despite numerous setbacks. On the other hand, Generation Z never had those aspirations in the fir…

Might be a good thing in the long run.

The nuclear family was a stupid idea anyway, putting the necessity of income over the necessity of an (extended) family. Children are not supposed to be raised by a single pair of mother and father, that's not how humans have evolved to grow up. Humans have always been raised by the extended family and only in the last two-hundred years we've invented this crazy concept of a 'nuclear family'.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#850

Post by graphtradr » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 10:13 AM UTC

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #668

twh270 wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. I've had many conversations about this topic with my son (and on occasion some of his friends -- both male and female), since he was in middle school (a decade ago). They're well aware of how men are portrayed versus women. We've transitioned from "A women's place is in the home (barefoot, pregnant, and cooking a delicious meal for her husband)" to "A woman's place is whatever she wants, and men are the reason f…

Moving discourse to social media and click bait has destroyed so much nuance in all discussions. Everything is black and white now, every issue is just a war between 2 sides and you're either "with us or against us".

Yes, this is group psychology. Only individuals can really be rational. Once individuals form a psychological group, individuality is lost, rationality is lost with it and everything is controlled by the emotions of the group.

The group has no room for anything really but for the extreme emotional reactions of in-group/out-group psychology and you see this playing out in our society because of social media.

There is literally no room for nuanced discourse between individuals with the way our social media platforms are structured. Individuals will not drive engagement the way groups do.