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Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

bloomberg.com

631–640 of 1001 posts

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#631
> Improvements in video-game technology help account for young men’s detachment from the labor force, according to a 2017 paper by economists from Princeton, the University of Chicago, and the University of Rochester. It found that an increase in the playing of video games by men 21-30 accounted for somewhere between 38% and 79% of the differential in the decline in their time spent on paid work vs. the smaller decline of work by older men.

Attributing economic trends to video games seems lazy and dumb, given all the other potential factors. The de-facto decriminalization of marijuana isn't mentioned, and as much fun as it might be, there is nothing harmless about it, and drug use appears in pretty much every other explanation of social decline for other groups, but we don't seem to talk about it. It isn't boomer ditch weed shake anymore, it's 25% THC. In Toronto, even illegal dispenseries were given essential service status during lockdowns. That's only in the last 5 years, but those are the critical career years difference between 25 and 30 for one of the biggest demographic boom generations in the last century, and this sets their trajectory. These men just weren't raised well or with adequate tools. It's that simple. Many have been actively sabotaged by parents who used their kids as a source of narcissistic supply. Their dads' heroes were rock stars, who in hindsight were mostly guys who dressed like women and made a spectacle of complaining. Boomer and Gen X men as a cohort weren't much to emmulate. Compared to defeating global totalitarianism or building the internet, those in-between generations of corporate rock and blockbuster movies were a pitiful enterprise.

While I sympathize with the story of these young men, talking about mental illness and drug and alcohol abuse among young women is effectively taboo. Therapist friends tell me that young women are drinking themselves blind to hook up with randoms because they feel pressured to by their peers who encourage it to justify themselves. Sure, some really like it, but the ones who actually do don't challenge their friends to keep up with them. Peaches wrote a great song about how the rest of them feel. (Interestingly, Peaches ultimately became what she truly wanted to be: she is millenial womens' Joni Mitchell. When it lands what that means, you can begin to see.) The article isn't about young women, but they're suffering just as much and they are so much more harmed by the culture because their stakes are higher.

That men need each other with privacy to develop and thrive is an ancient principle, and almost impossible in modern society. However, the solutions are still right here, but they require effort, persistence, and risk - the very things that society makes the most scarce of all. Put simply, men are not meant to look at pictures and representations, we are meant to live in the world and engage it directly. It's time to wake up.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#632
post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most kids spends their first 15 years mostly surrounded by women. Their doctors, their kinder garden teachers, their school teachers etc. Almost every authority figure is a woman there. If those boys have problem I feel it is ok to say that it is mostly those grownups fault, and they happen to be mostly women.

The only way that you can be surrounded by women for your entire upbringing is if you don't engage in sports. Sports are typically hours per day. Coaches are absolute authority figures, and there are very few female coaches. I can't think of any men that never played sports but are somehow punished for being "so masculine"

"Sports" may be hours per day for boys --- and even this is probably but organized sports definitely aren't, and that's where the coaches are. Unless he's playing AAU basketball or club soccer or something, I really don't think a boy is spending even a few hours per week under an "absolute authority figure" coach.

On reflection, the parent comment jibes with my experience growing up in the suburbs in the early 2000s. Literally all of my elementary school teachers were women. The only man I remember was a PE teacher, and I don't remember ascribing any authority to him at all.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#633
post #557

>The fact that men don't tend to be a socially adept doesn't help. Men are socially adept in their society and a society of their peers. Just not in this one which seeks to break them down and punishes them for not being women.

When all you’ve known is privilege, equality can feel like oppression.

[deleted]

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But who raises the next generation under that scenario? Immigrants, of course, but what does that say about what American society has become? https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2021/05/24/will-birt... (Will births in the US rebound? Probably not.) People respond to incentives. Living and having children in the US is expensive, so the results are what you’d expect. Maybe we don’t need replacement rate, except f…

Historically, only a % of the population ever reproduced. About the same as do today. The difference is that the couples that do have children, have much fewer children. 2, instead of 4. We need to look at the costs faced by couples with a lot of children. For example, you can accommodate 2 children in a standard 3 bedroom house, but 4 or 5 children are going to need a much larger and more expensive dwelling. Same th…

> Historically, only a % of the population ever reproduced. About the same as do today.

This is half-right, as both 10% and 90% are technically both percentages. The rest is very much [Citation Needed].

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#635

So many comments here seem to miss the point here. These aren’t men who are working, but saving money living at home. They’re not participating in the labor force at all .

I wonder how many of the men are total NEETs and how many simply don’t participate in the formal economy but do earn money under the table?

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know they are failures, if they are happy with their situation.

Not leading a meaningful life inevitably leads to depression. That's not to say that a very small few people may somehow find meaning exclusively playing video games. However most people will eventually suffer from lack of self-esteam, low status and shame.

Exactly what is a meaningful life anymore, especially in America?

If you are looking for self-esteem through your job--for most of us those days are gone.

(I know way to many former Programers who aged out of the industry way to early, and gave up. Way to many are homeless. My point is don't expect too much psychological satisfaction from a job that barely covers the rent, has no real pension, and lousy medical. My father lived for work. He loved being an electrician. He didn't develop friendships, or hobbies. He died of liver cancer a few months into retirement. One of our last conversations was when he was dying. He got a letter from the union stating they will now cover his medical expenses 100%.)

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#637
post #535

I've got two nephews aged 34 and 32 who still live at home and play video games all the time and rarely leave their rooms. Neither has ever had a job that lasted more than a month or so. Neither ever learned to drive even though they live in a town with little or no public transit. They haven't had any education beyond high school. They seem wholly unprepared to navigate life without their parents. It's a slow motion…

Well maybe they're smart enough to know that, in a world where most things have either been automated or offshored, the only purpose most jobs serve in the grand scheme of things is to increase the velocity of capital. If you had a choice between the fake purpose offered by an office job where you get to be a peon, versus the fake purpose offered by a video game where you get to be a hero: which would you choose?

But a job provides you real money that gives you real options in life. You can't take someone out on a date with your video game points.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A person who does nothing with their life when they could be doing something is really a narcissist. I spent a mere year after college living with my parents, a very long and sad year, wondering if this was going to be the rest of my life. My next real job came somewhat out of sheer luck and I'm thankful for it because I could totally see myself having given up, still back there to this day, still having no idea how…

Made a throwaway for obvious reasons. I'm in the middle of that year right now. I was doing well - transferred from community college to a top university studying engineering. Perfect grades, several prestigious summer internships. Then I had a depressive episode. Grades went down the toilet, had to leave school. Spent a year getting my life back together, but the depression never really went away. I went back to sch…

From what little I know about you, it sounds like you are someone who just. keeps. trying. That can take you far.

For what it's worth, I know several (good) engineers who became engineers much later than their late 20's.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A person who does nothing with their life when they could be doing something is really a narcissist Nah, lots of people just tend to follow the path of least resistance at the moment. They don't assume that others will support them forever, they just aren't thinking about it since it is bothersome. If they were forced to do other things then they will do other things, since the force changed what path has the least…

I agree with you, it might not necessarily be narcissism that causes someone to always do the bare minimum in life. What it really comes down to is lack of discipline.

Could also be depression and learned helplessness. Playing video games all day is just a coping mechanism or distraction from the first two problems.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#640

Idk, playing video games all day without any responsibilities seems like they’ve straight-up won life. Most of us have to work for that privilege or be born with a trust fund in our name. Only losing side to this path is a lack of romance or intimacy. No one’s likely gonna remember you anyway, for better or worse. Might as well enjoy your time on Earth with some of the most immersive storytelling humanity has invente…

In my experience[0] that's not really true. This comment[1] is pretty on the money. Being a NEET is not a vacation, and playing video games all day is often a means of avoiding confronting the realization that you're a waste of oxygen. Many have substance co-dependencies that function similarly. It's the sort of life that sounds cool as an overworked wagie but gets stale rather quickly, plus a massive helping of sunk-cost behavior justification once one realizes how hard it can be to get back in the saddle.

The people in this situation I've personally known who have been in the best mental state were those who went beyond just playing games all day to do something more productive though still probably non-commercial: forum mod, fan translator, guild webmaster type of thing. Again, at least in my experience, pretty much everyone has a desire to be useful to others in some way. Wallowing in purely consumption-based activities can help at first but doesn't hold off the demons forever.

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[0] 30k hours of runescape gets one a lot of NEET acquaintances

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27479336

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