Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home • Hacker News Board

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#751

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:06 AM UTC

acituan wrote: post #721

flippinburgers wrote: post #511

Men are not doing as well as women in school. If you look in the wrong places on the internet, media, or daily life, all you see is negativity towards masculinity. In addition, there doesn't appear to be any broad social system that is geared towards supporting men. The fact that men don't tend to be a socially adept doesn't help. This all feels like the perfect storm and there are plenty of people who act like "men…

> Men are not doing as well as women in school. Schools are not performing as well for men as they do for women. I'm not just playing with words; it is really important to frame the share of responsibility correctly. It is the school's job to educate the kid, not kid's job to compensate for the dysfunctions of an education system. I'll generalize because I don't have any detailed data; anyone from the front-line educ…

> > Men are not doing as well as women in school.

> Schools are not performing as well for men as they do for women.

Maybe men are just not inherently less suited to academic success, which is being made more clear now that systematic discrimination in their favor isn’t preventing equal-terms comparisons with women in that domain.

Equality of opportunity doesn't mean equality of outcomes, after all.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#752

Post by shrimp_emoji » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:07 AM UTC

Mirioron wrote: post #717

fnord77 wrote: post #175

what do these young men have to look forward to in life? home ownership and having a family probably seem so financially out of reach that kids are not even trying.

Video games, movies, books, and other such entertainment. I genuinely believe that this is what they're looking forward to.

Toss programming in, and you've listed off about all of the best things humanity's ever offered to date.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#753

Post by aidenn0 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:08 AM UTC

codemac wrote: post #295

grogenaut wrote: post #151

I'm trying to get my son and his girlfriend to live at home for a few years post graduation. He wants to move out into a place in seattle. She's a bit more about saving money. The math is that they'd have all loans paid off and a 200k down payment about 4 years out of college if they live with us, and they'd have loans paid off if in 4 years and Important side note: they're both major home bodies so they wouldn't tak…

PERSONAL RANT YOU DON'T NEED TO READ, BUT I NEED TO WRITE: I will add something to your son's point: being independent from my family was more important to me than saving money, especially if their loans are only 4 years away from being paid off. In fact, it bootstrapped all kinds of good behaviors around how to socialize with others, make friends, find a job, fix my own toilet, do laundry, pay taxes, find a new hair…

I went to college a 12 hour drive away from home, rather than something in-state for exactly this reason.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#754

Post by Buldak » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:11 AM UTC

soucy wrote: post #559

flippinburgers wrote: post #511

Men are not doing as well as women in school. If you look in the wrong places on the internet, media, or daily life, all you see is negativity towards masculinity. In addition, there doesn't appear to be any broad social system that is geared towards supporting men. The fact that men don't tend to be a socially adept doesn't help. This all feels like the perfect storm and there are plenty of people who act like "men…

Bullshit. There are problems but it's not because of some "war on masculinity". The real issues are economic.

Yeah, I can appreciate certain complaints about the way men are portrayed in media and popular discourse, but it seems like a leap from there to phenomenon in question. We criticize men for telling women to smile, or whatever ... and somehow the end result is that they give up on their career ambitions?

I think you're right that the real issues are economic. In fact I'd say that this is part of a larger, more general tendency to use cultural conflict to distract from class conflict.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#755

Post by fighterpilot » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:12 AM UTC

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #357

pcbro141 wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a related note, on mainstream TV/articles about declining marriage/birthrates in the West, it's common to see criticisms about modern Western men. How women can't find life partners because men aren't masculine enough anymore, don't want to grow up, don't get educated etc. But very rarely do you see any criticism or even questioning about modern Western women and what men want in a woman. Only what women want. The…

> Degrees don't make you marriage material. This gets said so much on fora with men who regard themselves as “redpilled”, but it makes no sense to me personally. As a bookish and arts-inclined person, so much of my worldview, the things that occupy my thoughts during the day, has been formed by the canon of literature, music, films. No woman would seem dating and marriage material to me if she weren’t similarly erudi…

Would a 21 year old woman with a high school education who is extremely attractive be more sought after by more men than a 40 year old woman of average attractiveness who has a PhD? I'd guess yes, and I don't think it'd be a close contest. I'd guess about 90 percent of men would go with the former if they had a real choice between the two.

It's not that the PhD doesn't add to the attractiveness. It's just not the most important variable for most men. You might differ, but unusually intellectually curious men on HN aren't really representative. Most people have very little intellectual curiosity.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#756

Post by developer93 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:12 AM UTC

epicureanideal wrote: post #607

jdgoesmarching wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a lot of validity to the social struggles of men in a lot of online discourse, but to say “society“ punishes us for not being women flies in the face of almost every useful metric of socioeconomic success. Women did not create the society that is hurting men emotionally and economically. Buying into that victim complex is a distraction from your own self-development and healing.

> flies in the face of almost every useful metric of socioeconomic success. Earnings isn't necessarily the best measure of socioeconomic success. https://girlpowermarketing.com/statistics-purchasing-power-w... Women control or influence 85% of spending, for example. I would say the amount of goods and services you actually purchase and consume would be a better indicator of socioeconomic success, compared with earnin…

Assuming a traditional household here with a working dad and stay at home mum, if the woman is mostly responsible for childcare, that's also a huge load. Just because the mother here isn't bringing in money doesn't mean she isn't working. Personally I'd take the employment (and have).

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#757

Post by throoooway » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:13 AM UTC

twh270 wrote: post #648

flippinburgers wrote: post #511

Men are not doing as well as women in school. If you look in the wrong places on the internet, media, or daily life, all you see is negativity towards masculinity. In addition, there doesn't appear to be any broad social system that is geared towards supporting men. The fact that men don't tend to be a socially adept doesn't help. This all feels like the perfect storm and there are plenty of people who act like "men…

Yup. I've had many conversations about this topic with my son (and on occasion some of his friends -- both male and female), since he was in middle school (a decade ago). They're well aware of how men are portrayed versus women. We've transitioned from "A women's place is in the home (barefoot, pregnant, and cooking a delicious meal for her husband)" to "A woman's place is whatever she wants, and men are the reason f…

Dreading this when my sons grow up.

“Hey, society and the media and politicians, institutions have all decided your nature is a problem and that you are assumed guilty, to be viewed with suspicion at all times. Oh and for some reason, you should still want to support this structure with your hard work and taxes, and shut up and never mention it.”

Honestly - I don’t know why I would tell him he should accept this society, why he shouldn’t move to another country and why he should stick around. It isn’t showing any signs of changing.

It sickens me, I don’t believe in my own country anymore.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#758

Post by random314 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:14 AM UTC

grammarnazzzi wrote: post #612

random314 wrote: post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know they are failures, if they are happy with their situation.

Not leading a meaningful life inevitably leads to depression. That's not to say that a very small few people may somehow find meaning exclusively playing video games. However most people will eventually suffer from lack of self-esteam, low status and shame.

This gives rise to 2 questions

1. Do you mean a meaningful life from the gamers perspective or from the perspective of outsiders?

2. If the issue is lack of self-esteem etc. Wouldn't it be better to focus on mental health instead of employment? Once again, I was interested in talking about gamers who are happy with their situation.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#759

Post by throoooway » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:15 AM UTC

ksec wrote: post #704

flippinburgers wrote: post #511

Men are not doing as well as women in school. If you look in the wrong places on the internet, media, or daily life, all you see is negativity towards masculinity. In addition, there doesn't appear to be any broad social system that is geared towards supporting men. The fact that men don't tend to be a socially adept doesn't help. This all feels like the perfect storm and there are plenty of people who act like "men…

Yes. And there were comments [1] in this thread [2] where some parents shared similar concern. There were at least two other threads on the subject in the past two years. ( Which I should have bookmarked but as usual bookmarks in general is quite useless and I cant find it ) This view isn't even mainstream yet. We are already seeing lots of parents worrying much more about their son than their daughters. It will like…

I am extremely worried about my sons.

Very; very worried. I feel they are being set up to fail by society.

First, the education system has been designed to discriminate against independence and curiosity, personal initiative. These were my traits in school and they were used against me.

Second, I know many professional women. With college degrees. They have literally been taught to despise men. Not a joke. They literally hate them. It’s all caused by our media and politicians.

Third, I interpret most of the “faux diversity” efforts by Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon, higher education as being primarily designed to create a pipeline from India and China directly to America that allows all of the above to systematically exploit and underpay people from the emerging world whose education is much cheaper. If you haven’t been paying attention, half of Silicon Valley’s ceos are now from India. Something more is going on there than “Zomg can’t find talent.” It’s systematic.

I believe our countries institutions are collaborating to avoid paying specifically white males a living wage while pretending there is a talent shortage and diversity problem.

Add it all together: It is bleak and outcomes are awful.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#760

Post by noisy_boy » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:15 AM UTC

buildingmateri wrote: post #710

flippinburgers wrote: post #511

Men are not doing as well as women in school. If you look in the wrong places on the internet, media, or daily life, all you see is negativity towards masculinity. In addition, there doesn't appear to be any broad social system that is geared towards supporting men. The fact that men don't tend to be a socially adept doesn't help. This all feels like the perfect storm and there are plenty of people who act like "men…

Especially a problem because for almost all men a career and supporting family (maybe the hardest thing to figure out in life) is non optional, whereas half the female friends I have from college have abandoned careers to saddle up to a breadwinner ... I mean I kind of want that option but men don't really have it. Does anyone ever really discuss this social reality that makes it different for men v women in real wor…

For those lambasting the parent comment, ignore the phrasing and let us go by stats. Count how many women with successful careers you know that are married to unemployed men (to stick to the point the parent makes, let us skip cases where both husband/wife are working). Now do the same count with genders switched. Observe the differential - for the record, it is clear that there are complex reasons behind this difference (children being a big one) but we can't ignore the fact that this choice is much more "socially normal/acceptable" for a woman compared to a married man being unemployed by choice.