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It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

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Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#211
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have a particularly scathing take on the idea that higher education is a finishing school.

Could you elaborate? I do not really get what you mean.

They are arguing that elite institution's goal is to prepare entry into polite society not to provide a liberal education.

"A finishing school is a school for young women that focuses on teaching social graces and upper-class cultural rites as a preparation for entry into society" [1]

"a philosophy of education that empowers individuals with broad knowledge and transferable skills, and a stronger sense of values, ethics, and civic engagement ... characterised by challenging encounters with important issues, and more a way of studying than a specific course or field of study" [2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finishing_school [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_education

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#212
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have said, there are many other good schools for everyone, even for the Ivy Leaguers. But with the Ivy League you get cachet and connections. I don't begrudge them. They can have them. They will have them regardless as you said. Why want to be the thing you don't like anyway. At least it's not as bad as having to have attended the Sciences Po, or have to have attended Eton/OxBridge and the like. The bad par…

A curiosity for me is that the Ivies are among some of the few universities where you get need-blind admission and financial aid. I have many acquaintances that did not pay a penny in tuition. But that does not fix the larger issues with the system.

A college that my daughter was accepted at claimed to meet 100% of need, as I think a lot of private colleges do. It meant that after we filled out the FAFSA and an additional form that some private colleges use, they figured out how much we could "afford" to pay, and it was about 100% of full freight. We're a middle class family, let's say supported by 1.5 professional jobs, since one of us works part time. We didn't have a quarter million dollars jangling around in our pockets, and were greatly relieved when our daughter chose the nearby public university instead.

Also, it's often expected that "need" will be partially met by working a campus job, and taking out loans.

It's great if the college wants to curate a student body including some low income students, but I think there's a pretty big swath of the middle class that's neither poor enough nor rich enough for one of those colleges.

I'm not devastated. The state university is damn good, and hobnobbing with the influential is only useful if you happen to be skilled at hobnobbing.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#213

> Faculty members at prestigious universities are 50 times more likely than the average person to have a parent with a Ph.D. American meritocracy has become a complex, inefficient, and rigged system conferring its graces on ambitious children of highly educated and prosperous families. What’s the ratio in other fields of top achievement for kids to follow in their parents’ footsteps? It’s entirely unsurprising that a…

I would add into the mix that it's also about access and resources which give maybe a bigger leg up.

Engineers, college educators, etc make more money, their kids presumably go to good schools, they presumably have more hands on time available to help their kids succeed and more connections, legacy admissions etc.

I see this in my sport. One of the olympians for climbing for US comes from climbing 'royalty.'

being literally born into the sport from day 1 makes a huge difference. plus having access to a groundbreaking gym and youth training program your mom literally created ;0

Not to take away achievement. strength is strength, intelligence is intelligence. it's all very impressive and doesn't come without work.

but I think opportunity and access to resources are important factors to consider.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#214
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a whole network, not one coach. College advisor, Rick Singer, would facilitate what he called 'side door' donations. In some cases these were bribes to coaches, or admission staff. In other's they were donations to fund programs ie; the Stanford sailing coach was charged for accepting money that went to the Stanford sailing program, not to them personally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_college_admissions_…

Sorry, I was thinking specifically about the Yale case. Still, all these cases are something that these institutions were vigorously against and unaware of. Bribing someone is not a donation (and is illegal).

That is the universities marketing & legal defense. But in reality "getting creative" is encouraged to find funding for speciality programs that run at a loss, like sailing. The Universities will take money to "specially consider" an applicant, 500K is just not enough for Stanford or Harvard these days that price tag is in the tens of millions.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The company I work for now pays substantially more than Google/Facebook/et. al and most people on my team are from random state schools, many with no experience at FAANG. You can certainly make millions from a pre-IPO startup (and I have 2nd degree knowledge of many people that did get rich off IPOs), but you're not making that at the Google of today. I'm sorry you feel that way about your past. You should consider s…

> The company I work for now pays substantially more than Google/Facebook/et. al and most people on my team are from random state schools That's...interesting, because it's certainly not the way the LinkedIn pages of most folks at Hudson River Trading, 2Sigma, Stripe or Citadel would imply (I did get into Citadel, but for a 2nd tier role). Of course, it would make sense for Netflix, which has a more Amazon-like hirin…

I don't work at any of those companies :)

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#216

> Faculty members at prestigious universities are 50 times more likely than the average person to have a parent with a Ph.D. American meritocracy has become a complex, inefficient, and rigged system conferring its graces on ambitious children of highly educated and prosperous families. What’s the ratio in other fields of top achievement for kids to follow in their parents’ footsteps? It’s entirely unsurprising that a…

Most of all your kids are likely to have IQ's close to the median of you and your wife. This is likely the most important factor of all as heart-breaking and unfair as this is.

The median of two numbers is the average.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quantitative concentrations in Harvard are probably the ones that are the least affected by legacy admissions and “holistic” reviews. I guess you are more likely to see such applicants in sociology, WGS, VES and other concentrations stereotypically seen as easy. I doubt people who get a ride based on their athletic achievements in spite of their low GPA flock to CS and physics.

Student athletes at these schools are generally smart. No reason to think there aren't enough athletic smart people to fill up a relatively small number of spots.

Not as smart as average.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that she was at Caltech (and then MIT) alone is an indication that she is objectively superior to people like me though, and I have little hope of achieving even a fraction of that sort of success. I can't even get an interview at companies like Stripe because of my school, for instance.

This seems like some sort of schtick you’re running on here, I think.

In what sense?

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#219
post #131

I think this whole debate is centered on the shallow idea that "going to an Ivy League" in and of itself is what ordains "elite-ness". To unravel this, you first must consider the actual value proposition of Ivy Leagues relative to other schools. Firstly, undergrad in America, especially at private schools like the Ivy Leagues, is more a daycare for rich kids, than it is a place of scholarship and learning. The educa…

I have studied and taught (as a graduate TA) at some of these institutions so maybe I am not objective, but some of your premises are flatout wrong. Especially when it comes to money: it is not the majority, but a substantial portion of undergrads in these institutions are from lower middle class or lower (economically) backgrounds. The rest are upper middle class and few are actually from rich families. The higher s…

> some of your premises are flatout wrong. Especially when it comes to money: it is not the majority, but a substantial portion of undergrads in these institutions are from lower middle class or lower (economically) backgrounds.

I don't find the existence of students from middle class or lower backgrounds to be contrary to any of my premises. My point is more around the network effects. The children of the elite do attend these schools. The children of the elite are by definition already elite. Exposure to these social circles, even through something like the alumni network is a massive value proposition and massively increases ones chances of becoming an elite. If the children of the elite were to go elsewhere, the social network and value goes along with them.

This is not to say Ivy Leagues don't have other merits as undergraduate institutions, such as great staff and academics.

> The higher steps of the economic ladder are overrepresented simply because having money implies better K12 education in the US, which makes it easier to get into these schools.

It's not just K12 education, it's extracurriculars, it's SAT prep, it's high schools paying recruiters to visit campus, etc. It's a virtuous cycle. But again there are also network effects to consider. Rich and powerful families want to send their children schools with children from their socioeconomic class, so they cluster.

> And while the extracurriculars available are quite great, it is not a "daycare" and the rigors of education are very high.

My point on undergrad being akin to "daycare" is not unique to Ivy Leagues. In my experience in the US, there is a certain type of student that doesn't work a job, lives in a supervised environment (dorm), doesn't pay their own bills, doesn't cook for themselves, studies occasionally and who's main focus is fraternizing with their peers. This lifestyle is what I am comparing to daycare, and I don't believe this is uncommon esp. in places that cater to those of higher socioeconomic class.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#220
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either it would have to expand its undergrad programs, or student quality (as Harvard measures it) would decline. Joseph Heath has a very interesting article comparing US elite schools (tiny undergrad program) and Canadian elite schools (massive undergrad programs, bigger than Ivy League) http://induecourse.ca/the-bottleneck-in-u-s-higher-education...

But...we already have elite large undergrad programs, they’re called the UCs and the UT systems and the rest of the systems that support public ivies (both flagship and secondary campuses). UToronto, Waterloo, and UBC are all public. Our public ivies are big and produce equivalent talent while being accessible to nearly everyone through CC transfer agreements. I don’t think there’s a bottleneck here. The real bottlen…

I don’t think school really figures into people’s thought process in Canada. UofT and UBC are massive, and as long as you check the boxes you get in. People in the Saskatchewan may prefer URegina because it’s closer to home, someone from Newfoundland may go to Memorial.

Faculty positions are so competitive that I don’t think there’s a huge difference in the quality of the younger professors, just the bigger schools will have more profs and bigger research groups.

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