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It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

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Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#201

Post by krastanov »

rkk3 wrote: post #177
krastanov wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have studied and taught (as a graduate TA) at some of these institutions so maybe I am not objective, but some of your premises are flatout wrong. Especially when it comes to money: it is not the majority, but a substantial portion of undergrads in these institutions are from lower middle class or lower (economically) backgrounds. The rest are upper middle class and few are actually from rich families. The higher s…

> but a substantial portion of undergrads in these institutions are from lower middle class or lower (economically) backgrounds. "69% of Yale students come from the highest-earning 20% American Families" [1]. So the bottom 80% makes up 30% of Yale. Thats quite the under representation. > donations to get in" has not been a thing in recent history if ever Did you miss the Varsity Blues scandal? Official donations are…

Varsity Blues scandal: where a coach was defrauding the university by being paid by parents to falsly recommend students. Then got fired and criminally charged when this was discovered. How is this an example of donating to the university in exchange for admission?

Edit: more importantly though, your last paragraph is spot on. The rich (or simply upper middle class) paying for an exclusive better education, retaking expensive exams, and "fancy extracurriculars" during the K12 period is not a fair way to structure a society.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#202

Post by WalterBright »

creato wrote: post #127
bsder wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What’s the ratio in other fields of top achievement for kids to follow in their parents’ footsteps? It’s entirely unsurprising that academics raise academics, doctors doctors, Olympians Olympians, teachers teachers, etc. Actually, I suspect that most teachers discourage their children to follow in their footsteps ... And your points about doctors, olympians, academics, etc. have a common point: Large, up front expe…

> Engineering used to be one of the few fields where you could transition from blue collar to white collar even if you were a child from a poor family. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be very true, anymore. It seems more true than ever before. Software engineering in particular is probably one of the least credential sensitive careers in existence, and is huge and growing faster than just about any other job market. I so…

> least credential sensitive careers

Yup. I know successful ones without even a high school diploma. I have no academic education in CS.

> all the complaining

I do, too. One thing never mentioned is that a lot of people apply for software jobs with fraudulent resumes and just having memorized some jargon. The job interviewer needs some way to filter out these people before committing to 6 months of a high salary. Sure, they'll miss a few diamonds in the rough, but it's likely better than hiring a team of frauds.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#203

Post by krastanov »

rkk3 wrote: post #189
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "69% of Yale students come from the highest-earning 20% American Families" [1]. So the bottom 80% makes up 30% of Yale. Thats quite the under representation. This is still very different than the image painted by your GP, at least in my mind.

They have a particularly scathing take on the idea that higher education is a finishing school.

Could you elaborate? I do not really get what you mean.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#204

Post by buildingmateri »

neom wrote: post #52

Used to have this argument regularly with executives of startups I've worked for who had worked in more "traditional" industries. The number of times I've had to interject around "pedigree" being "useful" is.. sad. (Most)Everyone I've hired from Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, etc have been the worst performing, and the most far behind in relevant skills. RIT, Rutgers, etc, waaaay far ahead. It got to the point where I…

Yeah elite undergrads are striving to be entrepreneurs, CEOs, or wall street/consulting types, not code monkeys. Going to encounter a lot of resistance with standard coding jobs where need to roll up your sleeves for obvious motivation/identity reasons.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#205

Post by haihaibye »

aerovistae wrote: post #113
zarkov99 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of all your kids are likely to have IQ's close to the median of you and your wife. This is likely the most important factor of all as heart-breaking and unfair as this is.

This really misses the point I feel, although I struggle to say why.

He used median instead of mean, and forgot regression to the population average. IQ is only ~80% genetic

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#206

Post by rkk3 »

krastanov wrote: post #201
rkk3 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but a substantial portion of undergrads in these institutions are from lower middle class or lower (economically) backgrounds. "69% of Yale students come from the highest-earning 20% American Families" [1]. So the bottom 80% makes up 30% of Yale. Thats quite the under representation. > donations to get in" has not been a thing in recent history if ever Did you miss the Varsity Blues scandal? Official donations are…

Varsity Blues scandal: where a coach was defrauding the university by being paid by parents to falsly recommend students. Then got fired and criminally charged when this was discovered. How is this an example of donating to the university in exchange for admission? Edit: more importantly though, your last paragraph is spot on. The rich (or simply upper middle class) paying for an exclusive better education, retaking…

It was a whole network, not one coach. College advisor, Rick Singer, would facilitate what he called 'side door' donations. In some cases these were bribes to coaches, or admission staff. In other's they were donations to fund programs ie; the Stanford sailing coach was charged for accepting money that went to the Stanford sailing program, not to them personally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_college_admissions_briber...

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#207

Post by handrous »

rkk3 wrote: post #64
wolverine876 wrote: post #55

What is the author's thesis? I skimmed and read and re-read, but didn't figure it out. It's well known that elite universities are elitist in their admissions and have over-large endowments. And the elite universities have acted on it, and many of their new classes are very different. And it's well known that the rest of the U.S. educational system is underfunded. > Sen. Tom Cotton, of all political leaders, suggeste…

> What is the author's thesis? I skimmed and read and re-read, but didn't figure it out. Same. I think they are hoping Biden will put more money into public schools and stop preferential tax treatments for the large endowments. > It's not a surprise. Cotton and his party see Ivy League universities as institutions of the political opposition, whom they attack and want to punish and diminish. Tom Cotton... Harvard Uni…

Forget elite universities: IIRC exactly one of the last eight Presidential candidates (from the two parties that matters) in the general election didn't attend a private prep high school. (Hillary Clinton, is the one who didn't).

[EDIT] I know Cotton isn't one of them, I'm just pointing out that this elitism sure as hell appears to be a driving factor in who's on top in both parties.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#208

Post by catillac »

rejectedandsad wrote: post #197
selimthegrim wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew Liz Fong Jones at Caltech and she puts one foot in front of the other and goes to the bathroom like everyone else. Have a chill pill.

The fact that she was at Caltech (and then MIT) alone is an indication that she is objectively superior to people like me though, and I have little hope of achieving even a fraction of that sort of success. I can't even get an interview at companies like Stripe because of my school, for instance.

This seems like some sort of schtick you’re running on here, I think.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#209

Post by krastanov »

rkk3 wrote: post #206
krastanov wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Varsity Blues scandal: where a coach was defrauding the university by being paid by parents to falsly recommend students. Then got fired and criminally charged when this was discovered. How is this an example of donating to the university in exchange for admission? Edit: more importantly though, your last paragraph is spot on. The rich (or simply upper middle class) paying for an exclusive better education, retaking…

It was a whole network, not one coach. College advisor, Rick Singer, would facilitate what he called 'side door' donations. In some cases these were bribes to coaches, or admission staff. In other's they were donations to fund programs ie; the Stanford sailing coach was charged for accepting money that went to the Stanford sailing program, not to them personally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_college_admissions_…

Sorry, I was thinking specifically about the Yale case. Still, all these cases are something that these institutions were vigorously against and unaware of. Bribing someone is not a donation (and is illegal).

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#210

Post by jvanderbot »

rejectedandsad wrote: post #150
jvanderbot wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UIUC is a fairly huge assumption. Are you sure you want to do that? I think you're imaging a person that has more advantages than you do (or I did -- UIUC wouldn't have me). That's very likely not the case, at least not nearly as much as you think. Don't sweat it. You're not screwed, and it's not a competition anyway. I came from humble academic beginnings and failures and managed to get a job I love that pays the bi…

Perhaps I don’t! I also went to an ag school, except one that’s objectively unimpressive. I honestly can’t save as much as my peers, make a pittance compared to the Ivy Leaguers and have never achieved a fraction of what most of these hyper accomplished folks did even while being much older. Sometimes I feel like I should just wither away because there’s not much hope of ever achieving anything at this rate if I’m ju…

Well, don't feel that way. That's some poor story telling about yourself. And how you frame issues is everything. [1] At least you can save, which puts you over a huge % of Americans, and 99% of the world I'd bet. You have an education (I assume?) which is a huge leg up. I wouldn't bother saying all this, except I was a very late start myself, with lots of debt, zero education, and not even a high school degree. It took time, but that's something we all still have.

There was a guy in the warehouse (3rd shift) that worked with me before all the re-invention. He was +20 years my senior, working two jobs. He gave me a talk similar to above and it was a wake-up for me. That helped me. Nowadays, my peers help me by being supportive and inspiring.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy

Hey by the way, i always thought CBT was rubbish, until the intersection with that, Stoicism, and Meditation was made clear in the book Happiness Hypothesis. How dumb / arrogant was I to write off stuff that seemed to help millions of others ... Another thing I had to learn the hard way.

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