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It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

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Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#181

Post by rkk3 »

zumu wrote: post #131

I think this whole debate is centered on the shallow idea that "going to an Ivy League" in and of itself is what ordains "elite-ness". To unravel this, you first must consider the actual value proposition of Ivy Leagues relative to other schools. Firstly, undergrad in America, especially at private schools like the Ivy Leagues, is more a daycare for rich kids, than it is a place of scholarship and learning. The educa…

> If you reduce the number of kids from rich and powerful families going to these places, you are going to drastically reduce the networking potential amongst classmates

Disagree. The biggest "network benefit" comes from the Alumni Network, the established recruiting channels & the prestige from the degree. These would remain if they took more poor kids.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#183

Post by LudwigNagasena »

krastanov wrote: post #162
zumu wrote: post #131

I think this whole debate is centered on the shallow idea that "going to an Ivy League" in and of itself is what ordains "elite-ness". To unravel this, you first must consider the actual value proposition of Ivy Leagues relative to other schools. Firstly, undergrad in America, especially at private schools like the Ivy Leagues, is more a daycare for rich kids, than it is a place of scholarship and learning. The educa…

I have studied and taught (as a graduate TA) at some of these institutions so maybe I am not objective, but some of your premises are flatout wrong. Especially when it comes to money: it is not the majority, but a substantial portion of undergrads in these institutions are from lower middle class or lower (economically) backgrounds. The rest are upper middle class and few are actually from rich families. The higher s…

Quantitative concentrations in Harvard are probably the ones that are the least affected by legacy admissions and “holistic” reviews.

I guess you are more likely to see such applicants in sociology, WGS, VES and other concentrations stereotypically seen as easy. I doubt people who get a ride based on their athletic achievements in spite of their low GPA flock to CS and physics.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#184

Post by WalterBright »

mc32 wrote: post #165
zumu wrote: post #131

I think this whole debate is centered on the shallow idea that "going to an Ivy League" in and of itself is what ordains "elite-ness". To unravel this, you first must consider the actual value proposition of Ivy Leagues relative to other schools. Firstly, undergrad in America, especially at private schools like the Ivy Leagues, is more a daycare for rich kids, than it is a place of scholarship and learning. The educa…

As others have said, there are many other good schools for everyone, even for the Ivy Leaguers. But with the Ivy League you get cachet and connections. I don't begrudge them. They can have them. They will have them regardless as you said. Why want to be the thing you don't like anyway. At least it's not as bad as having to have attended the Sciences Po, or have to have attended Eton/OxBridge and the like. The bad par…

Costs will go even higher if graduates are allowed to dispose of loans via bankruptcy. Simply because the responsible ones will have to pay for the irresponsible.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#185

Post by LudwigNagasena »

krastanov wrote: post #170
mc32 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have said, there are many other good schools for everyone, even for the Ivy Leaguers. But with the Ivy League you get cachet and connections. I don't begrudge them. They can have them. They will have them regardless as you said. Why want to be the thing you don't like anyway. At least it's not as bad as having to have attended the Sciences Po, or have to have attended Eton/OxBridge and the like. The bad par…

A curiosity for me is that the Ivies are among some of the few universities where you get need-blind admission and financial aid. I have many acquaintances that did not pay a penny in tuition. But that does not fix the larger issues with the system.

How can a college that hides its selection process guarantee need-blind admission?

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#186

Post by mc32 »

WalterBright wrote: post #184
mc32 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have said, there are many other good schools for everyone, even for the Ivy Leaguers. But with the Ivy League you get cachet and connections. I don't begrudge them. They can have them. They will have them regardless as you said. Why want to be the thing you don't like anyway. At least it's not as bad as having to have attended the Sciences Po, or have to have attended Eton/OxBridge and the like. The bad par…

Costs will go even higher if graduates are allowed to dispose of loans via bankruptcy. Simply because the responsible ones will have to pay for the irresponsible.

Or they won’t approve 100k loans for some bullshit degree which has no hope of paying well and disillusioning students.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#187

Post by WalterBright »

sokoloff wrote: post #11

> Faculty members at prestigious universities are 50 times more likely than the average person to have a parent with a Ph.D. American meritocracy has become a complex, inefficient, and rigged system conferring its graces on ambitious children of highly educated and prosperous families. What’s the ratio in other fields of top achievement for kids to follow in their parents’ footsteps? It’s entirely unsurprising that a…

People being drawn to professions they are familiar with is not "rigging" the system.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#188

Post by selimthegrim »

rejectedandsad wrote: post #174
b9a2cab5 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't characterize Facebook as being all that different from Amazon. I'm sorry you view it that way. And Amazon is hardly "coach class". You make more money than my parents did combined as a SWE and with far less education. I suppose if you think being an elite means making millions it isn't happening at Amazon, but you aren't making millions at any salaried job short of being a C level exec. Just graduating fro…

> but you aren't making millions at any salaried job short of being a C level exec. Just graduating from Harvard isn't making you millions I mean it is happening at Google - look up how much Liz Fong Jones made as an ex-Caltech, ex-MIT engineer. Definitely happens to the MIT to Jane Street crowd and also happens to the people that can get offers at the IPOing startups I can’t even get interviews at. Not like I have t…

I knew Liz Fong Jones at Caltech and she puts one foot in front of the other and goes to the bathroom like everyone else. Have a chill pill.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#189

Post by rkk3 »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #180
rkk3 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but a substantial portion of undergrads in these institutions are from lower middle class or lower (economically) backgrounds. "69% of Yale students come from the highest-earning 20% American Families" [1]. So the bottom 80% makes up 30% of Yale. Thats quite the under representation. > donations to get in" has not been a thing in recent history if ever Did you miss the Varsity Blues scandal? Official donations are…

> "69% of Yale students come from the highest-earning 20% American Families" [1]. So the bottom 80% makes up 30% of Yale. Thats quite the under representation. This is still very different than the image painted by your GP, at least in my mind.

They have a particularly scathing take on the idea that higher education is a finishing school.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#190

Post by selimthegrim »

mlac wrote: post #21

“In 1940, the acceptance rate at Harvard was 85 percent.” I didn’t realize that was the acceptance rate, but JFK’s application to Harvard is interesting and that acceptance rate adds context: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/11/jfks-v... And maybe it’s not people pulling the ladder up behind them - it’s that the ladder has become more visible and desirable without expanding or changing. I do have so…

Having gone there, the degree is not the magic wand you seem to think it is.
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