Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech

#261

Post by ohyeshedid » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:41 AM UTC

cratermoon wrote: post #241

krapp wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they do. Social networks bridge the gap between publishing and communication for the public in a way that has been absolutely transformative in many people's lives, and many people do want that and find that useful. People want to chat with and share media with their friends and affinity groups. They want to follow trending or interesting subjects. They want to post cat pictures and memes.

Outside the SiliValley bubble, though?

Do you honestly believe only California techfolk use Facebook?

Re: Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech

#262

Post by crazygringo » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:50 AM UTC

jsjohnst wrote: post #257

crazygringo wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But as you can see from the gigantic list on that page, most grocery stores don't belong to those top 3. I live in NYC, for example, and I don't know a single grocery store here that belongs to a national chain or even a regional one -- they're all local. (With the sole exception of Target, but that surely doesn't make up even 1% of grocery sales here.) So the ecommerce market is entirely different. There's no grocer…

> I live in NYC, for example, and I don't know a single grocery store here that belongs to a national chain or even a regional one -- they're all local. 1. Whole Foods 2. Trader Joe’s 3. Acme (subsidiary of Albertsons) 4. Wegmans (on GP’s linked list) 5. Fairway / Morton Williams (depends on how you define “regional chain”, but both are Shoprite affiliates and Shoprite is on GP’s linked list) About the only truly “lo…

Ah, I wasn't thinking of more "upscale" stores like Whole Foods and Trader Joe's, good point.

But in my part of Brooklyn everything's extremely local -- FoodTown, Western Beef, Associated, etc. And in Manhattan I indeed always shopped at Gristedes, Westside, Fairway (which looking up their ownership, is at most regional if not local -- and even Shoprite is regional, not one of GP's 3 national chains).

But the main point stands -- across all 5 boroughs, the vast majority of grocery stores are local chains. Grocery stores are in no way concentrated in any way analagous to Amazon.

Re: Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech

#263

Post by ohyeshedid » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 2:08 AM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #159

nerdponx wrote: post #117

Somewhat OT, but I love how this "kitchen sink" idiom has become so warped over the last several years. As far as I know (native AmE), the original expression was "everything but the kitchen sink", which evokes the idea of taking everything in the kitchen and using it all in a recipe, only stopping short of dismantling the kitchen itself. Whether through mishearing or laziness, the "everything but the" part has been…

I think you're confusing it a bit... One expression still is "everything but the kitchen sink", which means all reasonable effort. But that means the kitchen sink is now the metaphorical "last thing", i.e. the full extent of our effort, the theoretical maximum. So to "throw the kitchen sink" at something is to put in all your effort, literally everything you've got. (And there's no need for junk in the sink...) It's…

I owe you drinks sometime.

It has never occurred to me to see that idiom as an analog for effort. It may sound silly, but in multiple lifetimes I've never seen it that way.

Re: Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech

#264

Post by graeme » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 2:25 AM UTC

bingidingi wrote: post #233

graeme wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, 40.4%: https://www.emarketer.com/content/amazon-dominates-us-ecomme...

maybe I was looking at bad data? this says 51.2% of retail ecommerce https://www.pymnts.com/news/retail/2021/amazon-walmart-nearl...

Tbh I’m not sure. May be different market definitions? “Ecommerce vs retail ecommerce”

Re: Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech

#265

Post by acituan » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 2:30 AM UTC

andreilys wrote: post #242

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we protect out markets from all monopolies, foreign included, we'd end up with tons of competitive companies all scrapping to be the best. Instead what we've got now are monoliths that will gradually ossify into cable-company levels of innovation and customer service. Breaking up domestic monopolies would be one of the best things we could do to compete internationally.

Breaking up domestic monopolies would be one of the best things we could do to compete internationally. International monopolies will be able to expand into the US and burn cash to acquire users and grow market share. Then when they've run all domestic companies out of business, they will raise prices.

US monopolies couldn't penetrate into China without the Chinese government's say so. Xiaomi had its share of US and Indian sanctions (albeit temporarily).

The problem is not only competition in US or Chinese as markets; it is also about global markets.

Re: Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech

#266

Post by hedora » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 2:37 AM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #262

jsjohnst wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I live in NYC, for example, and I don't know a single grocery store here that belongs to a national chain or even a regional one -- they're all local. 1. Whole Foods 2. Trader Joe’s 3. Acme (subsidiary of Albertsons) 4. Wegmans (on GP’s linked list) 5. Fairway / Morton Williams (depends on how you define “regional chain”, but both are Shoprite affiliates and Shoprite is on GP’s linked list) About the only truly “lo…

Ah, I wasn't thinking of more "upscale" stores like Whole Foods and Trader Joe's, good point. But in my part of Brooklyn everything's extremely local -- FoodTown, Western Beef, Associated, etc. And in Manhattan I indeed always shopped at Gristedes, Westside, Fairway (which looking up their ownership, is at most regional if not local -- and even Shoprite is regional, not one of GP's 3 national chains). But the main po…

NYC is not a typical US city.

Re: Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech

#267

Post by acituan » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 2:37 AM UTC

nicolashahn wrote: post #235

tmp_anon_22 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if Facebook got truly broken up worse apps would take its place, particularly in communities outside US jurisdiction. Say what you will about Facebook, but I believe some random FB employee can't just dive through my personal messages without consequences. Having met several, I believe their data scientists go to great lengths to strip PII and generally secure data sets in transit between teams and outside pa…

Facebook employee here. A significant chunk of onboarding is driving the message through that if you abuse your powers as an engineer to access personal user data, you will be insta-fired without warning. There are a number of checks in place to ensure that employees that don't need access to the data for their specific work cannot get it either. Additionally, the privacy review process for new products/features is e…

> A significant chunk of onboarding is driving the message through that if you abuse your powers as an engineer to access personal user data, you will be insta-fired without warning.

I think focusing on a rogue employee as the threat it missing the mark. The real threat is the ability for huge corporations to legitimize institutional access to data ("business reasons"), and to fight the legal fight if they are caught doing something wrong. Moral hazards of this mode of failure arguably has much more cumulative societal damage (e.g. Cambridge Analytica).

In other words, I worry less about an evil employee reading my messages than a scaled up corporate machinery milking all my data for dollars that feeds the machine back and also can fight any fight at the courts, DC and the public eye.

Re: Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech

#268

Post by m463 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 2:43 AM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #54

I've come around and landed more on the opinion that we're now enabling our jailors. Light tech regulation was exactly the correct approach in the 1990s (and arguably the 2000s). It enabled mind-boggling rapid and stunning innovation. ... However, the massive corporate fortunes built by the winners of those times are now primarily enabling rent seeking. Google and Facebook's other work is interesting in the same way…

There's a human side of all of this.

The people who built these companies in the 90's and 2000's are not the people running the ship now.

The new folks have very different personalities and motivations.

Re: Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech

#269

Post by hedora » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 2:46 AM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #155

fhrow4484 wrote: post #4

> Jeff Bezos, this one’s for you. This provision aims at Amazon’s practice of using data it collects from third-party merchants to enhance its own private label offerings. If it passes, the practice would be blatantly illegal. Would it equally apply to physical stores like Safeway, Kroger, Costco's private labels like "Private Selection", "Simple Truth", "Kirkland", ... What makes Amazon different in this regard? Is…

It's the monopoly aspect. Amazon is a quasi-monopoly for sellers in the sense that many sellers can only be profitable selling on Amazon, they have no choice. If Amazon has data on their entire customer base, clones their product and puts them out of business, you can view that as monopoly abuse of power. On the other hand, Ruffles sells their potato chips to hundreds if not thousands of national grocery store chains…

I don’t see how you could argue they’re a monopoly compared to retailers. They’re the #2 retailer, and smaller than #3 and #4 combined:

https://www.retail-insight-network.com/features/top-retail-c...

Also, most stores on that list have store brands to compete with many products, and specifically Ruffles.

#1 on the list is famous for pushing suppliers around because they know they can put suppliers out of business by cancelling contracts.

In fact, they established a 3% “fine” on any goods delivered late due to Covid:

https://progressivegrocer.com/walmart-pressures-suppliers-de...

Re: Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech

#270

Post by jsjohnst » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 2:54 AM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #262

jsjohnst wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I live in NYC, for example, and I don't know a single grocery store here that belongs to a national chain or even a regional one -- they're all local. 1. Whole Foods 2. Trader Joe’s 3. Acme (subsidiary of Albertsons) 4. Wegmans (on GP’s linked list) 5. Fairway / Morton Williams (depends on how you define “regional chain”, but both are Shoprite affiliates and Shoprite is on GP’s linked list) About the only truly “lo…

Ah, I wasn't thinking of more "upscale" stores like Whole Foods and Trader Joe's, good point. But in my part of Brooklyn everything's extremely local -- FoodTown, Western Beef, Associated, etc. And in Manhattan I indeed always shopped at Gristedes, Westside, Fairway (which looking up their ownership, is at most regional if not local -- and even Shoprite is regional, not one of GP's 3 national chains). But the main po…

> But the main point stands -- across all 5 boroughs, the vast majority of grocery stores are local chains.

I’m not going to do like others and say your main point is irrelevant because NYC is unlike the rest of America (although arguably it is an outlier in almost every way), but the fact remains your main point is incorrect, the ‘vast majority’ of grocery stores in NYC are not local chains. I’m not invested in this debate enough to prove it by counting the number of grocery stores in NYC, but I’ve already shown that 5 (if not more) of the top ten grocery store brands in NYC are regional or national chains, so that disproves your “vast majority” claim without further effort in my opinion. YMMV!

Edit: even one of the ones you mentioned (Associated) is a regional chain... https://www.asghq.com/

Edit2: Foodtown is also a regional chain covering three states per their website. Further, Western Beef even has locations in Florida which stretches even the definition of regional to me!