Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech

#151

Post by seneca » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 8:49 PM UTC

wintermutestwin wrote: post #147

ethbr0 wrote: post #54

I've come around and landed more on the opinion that we're now enabling our jailors. Light tech regulation was exactly the correct approach in the 1990s (and arguably the 2000s). It enabled mind-boggling rapid and stunning innovation. ... However, the massive corporate fortunes built by the winners of those times are now primarily enabling rent seeking. Google and Facebook's other work is interesting in the same way…

Haven't we learned that the "break 'em up" fix for monopolies doesn't achieve the desired results? Why not simply get our government to do their jobs and REGULATE away practices that are not in the public's interest?

Because regulation, even when well-meaning, acts as a barrier to entry and keeps competitors from even getting off the ground. Stifling small companies stagnates the industry and smothers innovation.

You can play whack a mole with their bad behavior, but large companies can come up with new dark patterns way faster than you can regulate them with precise and well thought out regulation. You just end up with entrenched interests and an ossified industry.

That's not even touching on regulatory capture.

Re: Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech

#152

Post by chrisdhoover » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 8:49 PM UTC

dreamcompiler wrote: post #88

ethbr0 wrote: post #54

I've come around and landed more on the opinion that we're now enabling our jailors. Light tech regulation was exactly the correct approach in the 1990s (and arguably the 2000s). It enabled mind-boggling rapid and stunning innovation. ... However, the massive corporate fortunes built by the winners of those times are now primarily enabling rent seeking. Google and Facebook's other work is interesting in the same way…

We need to be careful about breakups to prevent re-agglomeration. Although AT&T was broken up, the Baby Bells eventually merged back together again while nobody was looking. The winner was Southwestern Bell, which later renamed itself to AT&T. The AT&T we know today is really just Southwestern Bell with a new name. Fortunately they have competitors but not very many.

Thats true but interregnum period between the old bell and the new bell brought us a great deal of innovation and positive changes to communications.

Re: Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech

#153

Post by shakezula » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 8:50 PM UTC

wintermutestwin wrote: post #147

ethbr0 wrote: post #54

I've come around and landed more on the opinion that we're now enabling our jailors. Light tech regulation was exactly the correct approach in the 1990s (and arguably the 2000s). It enabled mind-boggling rapid and stunning innovation. ... However, the massive corporate fortunes built by the winners of those times are now primarily enabling rent seeking. Google and Facebook's other work is interesting in the same way…

Haven't we learned that the "break 'em up" fix for monopolies doesn't achieve the desired results? Why not simply get our government to do their jobs and REGULATE away practices that are not in the public's interest?

The break them up and fix them approach actually worked wonders for the end consumers in Bell, Standard Oil, etc…

Re: Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech

#154

Post by ojbyrne » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 8:50 PM UTC

And right below this story there's a link to how Amazon got provisions that would have affected them removed from a bill that actually passed the Senate[1].

Discussing 5 separate bills sponsored by Democrats in the house like they might actually go anywhere seems ludicrous.

1.https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/06/09/amazon-...

Re: Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech

#155

Post by crazygringo » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 8:51 PM UTC

fhrow4484 wrote: post #4

> Jeff Bezos, this one’s for you. This provision aims at Amazon’s practice of using data it collects from third-party merchants to enhance its own private label offerings. If it passes, the practice would be blatantly illegal. Would it equally apply to physical stores like Safeway, Kroger, Costco's private labels like "Private Selection", "Simple Truth", "Kirkland", ... What makes Amazon different in this regard? Is…

It's the monopoly aspect.

Amazon is a quasi-monopoly for sellers in the sense that many sellers can only be profitable selling on Amazon, they have no choice.

If Amazon has data on their entire customer base, clones their product and puts them out of business, you can view that as monopoly abuse of power.

On the other hand, Ruffles sells their potato chips to hundreds if not thousands of national grocery store chains.

If some stores sell their own potato chips as well, those are just blips. Stores don't have insight into Ruffles' sales nationwide across all chains.

Re: Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech

#156

Post by shakezula » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 8:53 PM UTC

seneca wrote: post #151

wintermutestwin wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't we learned that the "break 'em up" fix for monopolies doesn't achieve the desired results? Why not simply get our government to do their jobs and REGULATE away practices that are not in the public's interest?

Because regulation, even when well-meaning, acts as a barrier to entry and keeps competitors from even getting off the ground. Stifling small companies stagnates the industry and smothers innovation. You can play whack a mole with their bad behavior, but large companies can come up with new dark patterns way faster than you can regulate them with precise and well thought out regulation. You just end up with entrenche…

Regulatory capture is the true evil of our current setup. Ajit Pai was inevitable, and he won’t be the last or even the worst.

Re: Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech

#157

Post by shakezula » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 8:54 PM UTC

dreamcompiler wrote: post #88

ethbr0 wrote: post #54

I've come around and landed more on the opinion that we're now enabling our jailors. Light tech regulation was exactly the correct approach in the 1990s (and arguably the 2000s). It enabled mind-boggling rapid and stunning innovation. ... However, the massive corporate fortunes built by the winners of those times are now primarily enabling rent seeking. Google and Facebook's other work is interesting in the same way…

We need to be careful about breakups to prevent re-agglomeration. Although AT&T was broken up, the Baby Bells eventually merged back together again while nobody was looking. The winner was Southwestern Bell, which later renamed itself to AT&T. The AT&T we know today is really just Southwestern Bell with a new name. Fortunately they have competitors but not very many.

The real solution is just to not allow them to merge in the first place. Anti trust regulations need teeth first.

Re: Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech

#158

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 8:55 PM UTC

wintermutestwin wrote: post #147

ethbr0 wrote: post #54

I've come around and landed more on the opinion that we're now enabling our jailors. Light tech regulation was exactly the correct approach in the 1990s (and arguably the 2000s). It enabled mind-boggling rapid and stunning innovation. ... However, the massive corporate fortunes built by the winners of those times are now primarily enabling rent seeking. Google and Facebook's other work is interesting in the same way…

Haven't we learned that the "break 'em up" fix for monopolies doesn't achieve the desired results? Why not simply get our government to do their jobs and REGULATE away practices that are not in the public's interest?

[deleted]

Re: Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech

#159

Post by crazygringo » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 8:55 PM UTC

nerdponx wrote: post #117

Somewhat OT, but I love how this "kitchen sink" idiom has become so warped over the last several years. As far as I know (native AmE), the original expression was "everything but the kitchen sink", which evokes the idea of taking everything in the kitchen and using it all in a recipe, only stopping short of dismantling the kitchen itself. Whether through mishearing or laziness, the "everything but the" part has been…

I think you're confusing it a bit...

One expression still is "everything but the kitchen sink", which means all reasonable effort.

But that means the kitchen sink is now the metaphorical "last thing", i.e. the full extent of our effort, the theoretical maximum.

So to "throw the kitchen sink" at something is to put in all your effort, literally everything you've got. (And there's no need for junk in the sink...)

It's a different expression with a different meaning but derived from the first.

And of course metaphors are very often silly... that's why we love using and abusing them! :)

Re: Congress is going to throw the kitchen sink at big tech

#160

Post by bigwavedave » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 8:57 PM UTC

nerdponx wrote: post #117

Somewhat OT, but I love how this "kitchen sink" idiom has become so warped over the last several years. As far as I know (native AmE), the original expression was "everything but the kitchen sink", which evokes the idea of taking everything in the kitchen and using it all in a recipe, only stopping short of dismantling the kitchen itself. Whether through mishearing or laziness, the "everything but the" part has been…

Funnily enough, in the TV show "Prison Break", the main character's brother's prison nickname is "Kitchen Sink" or "Sink". We're told that he got this nickname because if you get in a fight with him, he will come at you with everything but the kitchen sink!