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German environmental groups file objection against Tesla gigafactory permit

reuters.com

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Re: German environmental groups file objection against Tesla gigafactory permit

#81

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

durnygbur wrote: post #80
LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, maybe someone living on Hartz IV/ALG II in Marzahn, or something similar would enjoy it? Berlin isn't just Kreuzberg/Neukölln/Friedrichshain, you know?

Yes they might be the target demographics, now only 40000 of them is needed. Arbeitsamt is printing the letters probably ;)

Think of the poor people in their cages here https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesagentur_f%C3%BCr_Arbeit#...

They need work too!

"Arbeit, Arbeit, über alles, für das deutsche Sklavenland! Arbeit, Arbeit, über alles, Bürokratie ohne jeden Sachverstand." (lall)

edit: or them https://media04.lokalkompass.de/imagepost/2020/06/06/0/46791...

Re: German environmental groups file objection against Tesla gigafactory permit

#82

Post by Lio »

durnygbur wrote: post #64
imtringued wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It actually isn't a threat to their existence if German car makers respond early enough. It's a bigger threat to their existence if there is nobody to wake them up before they die.

If this means less Audi/BMW/Mercedes cars blinding me with their headlights and tailing 2m behind me, let them sleep.

You do realise that that is driver behaviour don't you?

The arseholes that do that in Audi/BMW/Mercedes will just switch to do the same thing in another brand if these companies cease to exist.

Still I never appreciated some of Audi's marketing that seemed to encourage this sort of bad behaviour.

Re: German environmental groups file objection against Tesla gigafactory permit

#83

Post by durnygbur »

Lio wrote: post #82
durnygbur wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this means less Audi/BMW/Mercedes cars blinding me with their headlights and tailing 2m behind me, let them sleep.

You do realise that that is driver behaviour don't you? The arseholes that do that in Audi/BMW/Mercedes will just switch to do the same thing in another brand if these companies cease to exist. Still I never appreciated some of Audi's marketing that seemed to encourage this sort of bad behaviour.

It's marketing and sales techniques of these premium brands emphasizing on arrogance, vanity, competitivenes, jealousity. At this point I really don't care because I'm starting to have Pavlov reflexes on seeing their front grills and logos.

> The arseholes that do that in Audi/BMW/Mercedes will just switch to do the same thing in another brand if these companies cease to exist.

If this is such a global phenomenon, maybe there exists a solution?

Re: German environmental groups file objection against Tesla gigafactory permit

#84

Post by newsclues »

shlant wrote: post #53
newsclues wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we considering the environment when we delay the mass production of environmentally friendlier electric cars?

I don't think it's fair to compare the specific, fairly measurable consequences of not fully considering how to "prevent highly poisonous gas from escaping from the factory" vs. the more vague and complex environmental impact of a delay in car production. But lets put that aside and let me ask you this: What amount of delay would you be ok with in addressing environmental concerns?

As little delay as reasonably possible.

Re: German environmental groups file objection against Tesla gigafactory permit

#85

Post by _Microft »

wait_a_minute wrote: post #67
_Microft wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These manufacturers flouted the rules and were eventually caught as well. If we hadn't had the rules, they could have gone on with that unopposed, so this is basically making my point?

They got away with it for a long time and at a huge scale and barely got a slap on the wrist. Your point is not proven. If anything it is harmed by this reality because it suggests environmental concerns are not actually that high up on Germany’s priorities and it seems like a concern-troll for them to cite environmental concerns now lol. They’re afraid of American muscle challenging their brands. Anyway, a Gigafacto…

Just keep in mind that you do not want to end up in a "race to the bottom".

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_the_bottom if you are unfamiliar with the term.

Re: German environmental groups file objection against Tesla gigafactory permit

#86

Post by shlant »

newsclues wrote: post #84
shlant wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's fair to compare the specific, fairly measurable consequences of not fully considering how to "prevent highly poisonous gas from escaping from the factory" vs. the more vague and complex environmental impact of a delay in car production. But lets put that aside and let me ask you this: What amount of delay would you be ok with in addressing environmental concerns?

As little delay as reasonably possible.

"reasonable" is pretty much meaningless. How do you determine what is "reasonable"? Who determines that?

Re: German environmental groups file objection against Tesla gigafactory permit

#87

Post by CRConrad »

Mrdarknezz wrote: post #29
tut-urut-utut wrote: post #4

Environmental groups file objections against every single major project in Germany. That's probably one of the reasons why major infrastructure projects in Germany never finish on time. I'm all for environment, but sometimes these complaints are just for complaint's sake.

Well building a battery factory in EUs worst CO2 polluter kinda makes no sense from an environmental viewpoint. Better to build it in Sweden or France which have a heavy Nuclear/Hydro mix in their grid.

Just because you have a battery factory in one country doesn't mean you have to charge all the batteries with electricity from that country, does it?

(Also: "EUs worst CO2 polluter" according to what measure and which source?)

Re: German environmental groups file objection against Tesla gigafactory permit

#88

Post by CRConrad »

jason0597 wrote: post #45
jackson1way wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is CO2 considered as pollution?

Since when is it not?

Ever, AFAIK.

Contributing to the greenhouse effect, yes, but that's never been considered exactly "pollution". (Unless the darn kids have fucked up language again. Geroffmyfuckinglawn.)

Re: German environmental groups file objection against Tesla gigafactory permit

#89

Post by CRConrad »

shlant wrote: post #55
esyir wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until the frivolous complaints get them an image of obstructionism and people start to ignore them. Boy who cried wolf, after all.

sure it's possible both the public and the government officials making the decisions might get alarm fatigue but from what we are seeing, more and more people are caring about environmental impact (even when it comes to electric cars) and think that we aren't doing enough to prevent it. The scrutiny of all major construction projects will probably only continue to increase as public perception continues to shift.

> more and more people are caring about environmental impact

1) It's hard to avoid the suspicion that ever more of those people are only performatively "caring" about environmental impacts; and

2) I'm getting ever more certain that quite a lot of those people who "are caring" lack enough information to care about environmental impact in a sensible way. If you're ill-informed enough, you will naively advocate "solutions" that are worse for the environment than what you're protesting against.

Re: German environmental groups file objection against Tesla gigafactory permit

#90

Post by CRConrad »

Retric wrote: post #44
paul_f wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The boy who cried wolf." They need to be more selective if they want to be taken seriously. Maybe this one is serious, but how are we to know if they fight everything?

We are not the ones reading these petitions, so it’s arguably irrelevant what we think about them. I suspect many environmental groups do limit themselves to reasonable exceptions, but when any group can do something some will object to everything. As such it’s not about environmental groups doing this but rather specific groups.

> As such it’s not about environmental groups doing this but rather specific groups.

After a while, you get to the point where it's up to the "environmental groups" to police themselves: If The Reasonably Lush Greens don't want all environmental concerns to be written off as Luddite obscurantism, then The Reasonably Lush Greens should regularly put out press releases like "One-in-a-trillion Risk Of Poison Gas Discharge, While Technically Existant, Is Negligible -- The Fanatical Neon Greens Are Spreading BS".

Really, honestly. Until they can do that, I'm not going to take either seriously. Why should anyone? Isn't that like accepting some rather-ultra-right movement because "But hey, they're not actually advocating gassing all the Jews... They just refuse to condemn the ones who DO advocate it." ?

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