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Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

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181–190 of 211 posts

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#181
post #151
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also have to keep in mind the context here. The Netherlands is a country that keeps its citizens under a tax slavery, that will make sure 80 to 85 % of all income you earn over the course of your lifetime will be taken away. Taken away in progressive income taxes, property taxes, inheritance taxes, pension taxes etc... Despite the massive levels of taxation citizen benefits are nowhere near the levels of Nordic c…

> They forget to check the percentage that is taken from their salary contributions, what makes it for the middle class at the same high levels of insurance as in the US. The Netherlands spends half what the US does per person on healthcare. Their taxes seem to be middle of pack for europe. Please provide some citations for the numbers you have cited since at a first approximation they seem to be grossly off.

My core point is that what the central bank is worried about is societal control of a very homogeneous society. Even if currently, a democratic one. The least thing he is worried about is investors as he claimed.

However we can talk a little bit both about overall Dutch TOTAL income burden plus spent on medical care:

Concerning your comment on taxation, I claimed the overall tax burden, is massive not that the income tax for example is the highest in the world. But if you want to talk just income taxation we can start here, and note this is just income tax:

"According to the OECD, the country with the highest national income tax rate is the Netherlands at 52 percent, more than 12 percentage points higher than the U.S. top federal individual income rate of 39.6 percent." https://www.crfb.org/blogs/us-highest-taxed-nation-world

I am sure we can turn this into a smarter discussion than those statistics based discussions. You know, those ones that try to make us believe, living in some Nordic town where it rains most of the time, its cold and you rarely see the Sun has the "happiest" citizens in the world. Or that Zurich or Luxembourg are the best places to live :-))

Concerning your comment around health I presume you are talking overall spent on citizen care. If the Netherlands spends half of what the US does per person on healthcare that, frankly, is an endorsement of the US system and a confirmation of my point. I am amazed the Netherlands spends that much.

Let me explain with some examples: The US habit of suing everybody, forces medical professionals/hospitals to spend a lot of money on very high liability insurance. This is something that almost does not come as a concern in the Netherlands. You can make a claim for medical errors but historically judges are inclined to protect the institutions as they do not have or cannot have high liability insurance: https://www.houthoff.com/insights/News/Doctor-and-hospital-n...

Also, you might know or not, in the Netherlands, the medical system and medical professional will regularly refuse or make it incredibly difficult to get access to standard procedures. I mean procedures that most industrialized nations consider standard levels of care.

This frequently comes as a shock for medical professional from other countries or making the post-graduation at Dutch medical universities.

Massive core effect ? By using these implied quotas, the insurance companies get massive amounts of money but have to spend very little. Some of these privatized health insurance companies make more money than some banks ! "Profits skyrocket at 85 Dutch healthcare firms" https://nltimes.nl/2019/09/25/profits-skyrocket-85-dutch-hea...

This is the reason why Dutch healthcare always comes up in regularly in the news as "Best in the World". It is sometimes used in the US as an example to follow by proponents of socialized medical care. I wish they would look a little bit at the details.

The citizens pay a massive amount mandated by law, but private health insurance companies save a massive amount of money. So again, I am surprised, if it is as you stated the costs are half of the US. As any Dutch residents present in this forum will confirm, here are some examples of expensive medical procedures. Expensive procedures the health insurance companies are likely to avoid due to Dutch medical culture.

- Dutch women will typically have birth at home or are strongly pressed to have babies at home. It is common to hear from Dutch doctors and I am not making this up: "You are pregnant not sick". I am not dismissing the benefits of child birth as they have positive aspects, but try to suggest a child birth to a German, French or British doctor an see as their eyebrows raise ....Again massive saving for the Insurance company. Side comment: guess where that family who does not pay taxes had all their babies ? At the hospital of course :-)

- The amount of pre-natal controls and checks are maybe one or two before a birth. Hospital births are only for exceptional cases or after you strongly insists with their GP. There goes another massive saving for the insurance company and a massive increase in risk for the insured citizen.

- Contrarily to most countries in Europe, unless you have a serious conditions very few women regularly are encouraged to see, or allowed by their GP to regularly see a Gynecologist. As these are very expensive specialist again massive savings for the insurance companies.

I could go on all day, but it was more about the central bank driving motives than the Dutch medical system.:-) I offer you here, a small data point from somebody used to a different, and cheaper, level of care: https://www.findingdutchland.com/magic-talking-dutch-doctors...

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#182
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you consider the fact that some people get really hurt by bubbles?

But, like, the reason they lose money is because they invest what they can't stand to lose. If you want to solve that problem, then pass a law that banks should stop transactions to investment platforms if the person has less than an average monthly income's worth of money on their account (to be clear, I'm not in favor of that, just that this would solve the issue you're seeing without the guesswork of timing a bubb…

Yeah, there is no good solution. But there is something that stinks about all this and ought to be addressed. I believe something like BTC aid incompatible with anything close to a real time market. It should be large block trades only. The supply of this thing is digitally constrained. The owners are unknown. How do we know this think isn’t in a perpetual pump-and-dump cycle? This is what it looks like.

Governments should step in. If the only way to buy it is to commit to holding it for a while or to buy it in large blocks then maybe we wouldn’t get the kind of market we have today. One that is hurting lots of people.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#183
post #168
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also have to keep in mind the context here. The Netherlands is a country that keeps its citizens under a tax slavery, that will make sure 80 to 85 % of all income you earn over the course of your lifetime will be taken away. Taken away in progressive income taxes, property taxes, inheritance taxes, pension taxes etc... Despite the massive levels of taxation citizen benefits are nowhere near the levels of Nordic c…

> The Netherlands is a country that keeps its citizens under a tax slavery, that will make sure 80 to 85 % of all income you earn over the course of your lifetime will be taken away. This is flamebait and wrong. Their tax rates range from 37% to 49% which is not far off the United States 40% or so for combined local, state, and federal taxes and add the cost of healthcare (which is included in those Dutch taxes, at h…

I talked about overall tax burden (what really matters) not income tax. And my core point was, I repeat, the central bank wants control and the least thing in his mind is investors protection.

But on the side of taxes here is the Dutch position... "Which countries tax their citizens the most?" https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/11/income-tax-around-the...

Factor the famous Dutch fuel and road taxes ( not included), factor you do not have, as I stated, the levels of benefits compared to a Sweden or Denmark and tell me if its a great position to be in...

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#184
post #50
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the heck does that mean? Credit cards in the US are a dollar based instrument, and they extend credit to consumers and simplify payments for merchants and consumers both. Crypto isn’t credit. Or much of a payment means at present. So what specifically do you mean by “other option”? This seems like a dodge. The common meme is that crypto will be valuable because it will be the money of the future and appreciate a…

Yeah so within the US it wouldn't really matter. On a global scale it would be nice to have a form of money that is not dependent on the whims of politicians.

That’s a nice way to describe anti money laundering and tax compliance laws.

Easier money transfers for the law abiding are a real problem to be solved (and new companies are making it much easier!) but widespread evasion of laws isn’t a great approach.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#185
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also really important, police will show up if you are counterfeiting USD. One of the neat things about cryptocurrency is that the supply is not protected by threat of force unlike fiat.

Because they’ve done a great job “protecting” the supply of the USD… Bitcoin’s anti-counterfeiting is a hell of a lot better than the USD’s anti-counterfeiting.

I am very glad that the US passed big spending bills for COVID, if that's what you are concerned about. Fiat currency has the feature of being able to borrow against the future.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#186
post #183
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Netherlands is a country that keeps its citizens under a tax slavery, that will make sure 80 to 85 % of all income you earn over the course of your lifetime will be taken away. This is flamebait and wrong. Their tax rates range from 37% to 49% which is not far off the United States 40% or so for combined local, state, and federal taxes and add the cost of healthcare (which is included in those Dutch taxes, at h…

I talked about overall tax burden (what really matters) not income tax. And my core point was, I repeat, the central bank wants control and the least thing in his mind is investors protection. But on the side of taxes here is the Dutch position... "Which countries tax their citizens the most?" https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/11/income-tax-around-the... Factor the famous Dutch fuel and road taxes ( not included),…

Your link shows 51% - are we to believe the average Dutch person spends 30% of their income on road & fuel taxes?

Now, you can say you get fewer benefits and that’s valid but it’s a far cry from 80% or using the word slavery to describe one of the highest quality of life countries in the world.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#187
post #181
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They forget to check the percentage that is taken from their salary contributions, what makes it for the middle class at the same high levels of insurance as in the US. The Netherlands spends half what the US does per person on healthcare. Their taxes seem to be middle of pack for europe. Please provide some citations for the numbers you have cited since at a first approximation they seem to be grossly off.

My core point is that what the central bank is worried about is societal control of a very homogeneous society. Even if currently, a democratic one. The least thing he is worried about is investors as he claimed. However we can talk a little bit both about overall Dutch TOTAL income burden plus spent on medical care: Concerning your comment on taxation, I claimed the overall tax burden, is massive not that the income…

I see you have moved the goalposts and have not bothered to actually provide any citations for the numbers from your original posted.

Your own link indicates that Netherlands taxes are only slightly above average for OECD countries given their GDP. This would indicate that your original claims were false.

The reason why health care costs are lower is a different topic. Your original claim about relative healthcare costs was clearly false.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#188
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, there's also the force of law behind stop signs.

A contagious narrative backed by guns indicates weakness of narrative

Well first of all, I would argue the force of law is a social contract, not a contagious narrative.

My second point to make here would be if vehicle drivers stopped following road signs, they would be likely to harm other drivers and bystanders. We have stop signs for a pretty good reason.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so deep I can't tell if you're joking or not. There are rural towns that have a completely different concept for a stop sign... backed by a lack of enforcement from officers.

Don’t try to stop completely at each stop sign, that’s impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth... there are no stop signs.

Unless you're a cyclist (Idaho Stops are good!) you should always make a full and complete stop at a stop sign.

You're going to kill a pedestrian one of these days.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#190
post #84

> "Cryptocurrencies are essentially neither money nor a financial product, but an example of what Nobel laureate Robert Shiller calls a 'contagious narrative': a contagious story in which people believe because other people believe in it." Which is exactly what money is, to begin with.

Money is a contagious story plus guns. I need to acquire USD to pay my tax bill, otherwise men with guns come and take away my house and put me in jail. That establishes a baseline value for USD.

If none of the services and goods trade in USD, the goverment will soon collect taxes in something else than USD
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