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Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

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Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#91

Post by adolph »

beckman466 wrote: post #12
andrewmcwatters wrote: post #7

I see this on the fringes of those within my circle of friends. I know one man in this age cohort who doesn't seem to have a job, just plays video games all the time, and I don't get it. But one thing I think about is what he has been exposed to: this is what he knows. I don't think this individual I'm speaking of was raised with anything differently. In this same light, as I believe the two concepts are directly rel…

> I suspect all of this is primarily cultural first, and not related specifically to work, the economy, pricing of good or services like buying a home and starting a family, which would come second. Hmmm I think you're wrong. It sounds like you've got survivorship bias, big time. Most people want to contribute, but the economic system fucks them and makes them dependent. Examples include: the intellectual property re…

> the economic system [. . .] makes them dependent

The emotion of dependency seems less likely to be developed by an economic system than of culture. One might claim that it is difficult to separate one from the other. Taking a cultural or an economic point of view I can see how a hierarchical culture would see participation as zero-sum but not an economic system. An economic system by itself, capitalist pig, pinko commie, feudal manorialism, whatever, is enhanced by participation and a sense of interdependency.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#92

Post by nunez »

kogepathic wrote: post #17
andrewmcwatters wrote: post #7

I see this on the fringes of those within my circle of friends. I know one man in this age cohort who doesn't seem to have a job, just plays video games all the time, and I don't get it. But one thing I think about is what he has been exposed to: this is what he knows. I don't think this individual I'm speaking of was raised with anything differently. In this same light, as I believe the two concepts are directly rel…

> another friend of mine basically refuses to date anymore because he thinks the sort of culture of Tinder dating is a waste of time that favors women disproportionately. My female friends (I'm male) with online dating profiles have shown me their matches and conversations, and it's bleak. They all mostly have an average profile and still receive thousands of likes/hearts/swipes and messages, but the mean amount of e…

It's always been that way with online dating. Men, on average, putting zero effort on the profile (including photos). Women put slightly more than zero effort into their profiles but get inundated with messages from mostly-terrible choices anyway because men like women.

Men spray low-effort messages at lots of women hoping for a bite. Women don't message because they have options.

Quality men trying to find any sort of extra have to work extra hard on selling themselves. Women looking for quality men have to work extra hard on creating a profile that deters the poor options they get (hard) _and_ deal with more subpar dates.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#93

Post by bradlys »

_fat_santa wrote: post #78
wolfretcrap wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's less about not having good jobs more about: 1. Most want to start business and become rich, not work for someone else. Starting business is difficult, needs lots of work, even if you are smart and hardworking, have capital to start, still you need social skills which present generation didn't develop, so getting along with others and leading others is still difficult which limits the success. 2. Anything you'll…

I agree with your first two points. Starting a business is hard, you'll probably fail (statistically) and there is likely someone else doing it better than you already. But part of starting a business is looking at that adversity and doing it anyways. Your third point about dating, I couldn't disagree more. If you go on social media you will see arguments very similar to the one you made, basically if you aren't an a…

Where do you live? This has not been my experience on the west coast.

You might be underselling yourself. In any major city, being average isn’t sufficient. You’re just swiped over for the next guy who is above average. (They always exist on the apps, nearly infinite amount)

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#94

Post by nunez »

michaelt wrote: post #74
andrewmcwatters wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does effort mean in this context? I recall friends of mine, young women, who were having the hardest time finding a significant other were just demanding things of men that would have them selecting from a socioeconomic pool of the top 20% of the population, when they themselves were in the bottom 20%. It was my experience that young women in general were asking for too much when I was in my early 20s. They want…

> What does effort mean in this context? One school of thought says there are men on dating websites who copy-paste a message saying "hey how you doing?" to every woman they see; and that women are beset by hundreds of copy-pasted messages from men who haven't even read their profile. This school of thought says, in order to stand out, men should carefully compose a different clever, charming message for each woman t…

Bespoke messages based on the profile you're reading is always a winning strategy. My response rate went way up when I started doing this. The trick is to make a message that's curated enough to tell the person that you've read their profile while being short enough to not require a lot of effort to read (because their inbox is flooded)

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#95

Post by bena »

anthonygd wrote: post #76
bena wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bumble has its own issues. It turns out "making the first move" is anxiety inducing in everyone. What women have done on Bumble is to basically treat the "first move" as an "invitation to treat", a second shot at selecting a guy. Most of those "first moves" are exactly what they say they don't want from guys: simple "Hey"s and "Hello"s. And then they say in their profile that once they say "Hey", you're supposed to r…

I think you're right about dating apps not really favoring either gender. Hiring is the first thing I think of when reading about dating apps. There's just a very strong natural imbalance. Dating apps are especially good at making people not have to face their shortcomings, i.e. I don't have to fix my shortcomings, because with a large enough pool there's going to be someone broken in the right way to accommodate me.…

We have our moments. But relying on rationality is an assumption that will bite you in the ass every time. Just look at markets, even when there's a clearly superior option, there's been plenty of times the inferior product wins.

Often because that inferior product manages to exploit our irrational selves either intentionally or unintentionally.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#96

Post by nunez »

AlwaysRock wrote: post #42
andrewmcwatters wrote: post #7

I see this on the fringes of those within my circle of friends. I know one man in this age cohort who doesn't seem to have a job, just plays video games all the time, and I don't get it. But one thing I think about is what he has been exposed to: this is what he knows. I don't think this individual I'm speaking of was raised with anything differently. In this same light, as I believe the two concepts are directly rel…

I've got a buddy in a similar situation. We all came from somewhat similar backgrounds and all majored in the same, useless, thing. We lived together and while we all played a lot of video games one of the three never really moved on from that. He's still working at a low wage job behind a counter and playing video games a lot. I think it's less that he doesnt know different but more that he never got a break in the…

I wonder what kind of situation your friend had going on in their house or their lives. Maybe y'all aren't as similar as you think?

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#97

Post by cheph »

protonimitate wrote: post #25
cheph wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that every able bodied person has to work is not supposed to be the way our society functions; at least not in the last 100,000 years. So the fruit of who's labour exactly are they entitled to then? And can I also get in on that action? I would like to get something other people made without working any more. I don't see why I as a productive member of society should get less than someone who festers in th…

FTA: > Make no mistake, though, for a young man who’s not working the couch isn’t a bed of roses. “About half of prime age men who are not in the labor force may have a serious health condition that is a barrier to working,” the late Princeton economist Alan Krueger wrote in the Brookings Papers on Economic Activity in 2017. Does it really sound that appealing to be "entitled" to pain, high medication costs, and/or a…

> “About half of prime age men who are not in the labor force may have a serious health condition that is a barrier to working,”

Not sure why what Alan Krueger thinks may or may not be the case it is relevant to this discussion. I may be sure I may be able to find many economist that may think many different things may be the case. But unfortunately for Alan Krueger here, opinions about what the data may or may not be is not the same as the actual data about what is, regardless of who's opinion it is. I would have hoped someone taught them that in highschool or university but I guess they must have not had time in their busy schedule of critical race theory.

> pain, high medication costs

Check and check, every moment I sit at a chair is just slightly less pain than every moment of standing, still manage to put in a day's work somehow.

> potentially crippling drug abuse problem?

Had it, kicked it.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#98

Post by The5thElephant »

wolfretcrap wrote: post #50
futureshock wrote: post #22

This seems like a kind rational economic choice. If there are not enough good jobs that can support independent living, providing for a spouse, buying a home or raising a family, then staying home with the easy accomplishment of video games makes sense. Most people never live outside their home states and can't afford to leave the support network of their family and close friends. If you grew up in a medium or high c…

It's less about not having good jobs more about: 1. Most want to start business and become rich, not work for someone else. Starting business is difficult, needs lots of work, even if you are smart and hardworking, have capital to start, still you need social skills which present generation didn't develop, so getting along with others and leading others is still difficult which limits the success. 2. Anything you'll…

This is a very pessimistic and distorted take on things.

1. From what I have seen most people want a job that pays for their lifestyle and isn't soul destroying. Sure people fantasize about becoming a successful entrepreneur, but certainly not most and not enough to give up on work in general.

3. This is frankly ridiculous and such a blatantly false view of what women want that it borders on incel philosophy. It appears entirely based on the extremely exaggerated and polarized views seen on social media rather than the far more moderate and balanced views the average person you come across will have. Most women do not demand millionaires. This is readily apparent if you talk to real women instead of only watching TikTok and Instagram models.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#99

Post by The5thElephant »

bradlys wrote: post #93
_fat_santa wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your first two points. Starting a business is hard, you'll probably fail (statistically) and there is likely someone else doing it better than you already. But part of starting a business is looking at that adversity and doing it anyways. Your third point about dating, I couldn't disagree more. If you go on social media you will see arguments very similar to the one you made, basically if you aren't an a…

Where do you live? This has not been my experience on the west coast. You might be underselling yourself. In any major city, being average isn’t sufficient. You’re just swiped over for the next guy who is above average. (They always exist on the apps, nearly infinite amount)

Somehow there are an endless number of men who are above average? Isn't that a self defeating point and mathematically impossible?

You realize many women feel this exact same way about being ignored because men just want models out of their league?

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#100

Post by guskel »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #38
marcellus23 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly believable that women don't enjoy dating apps, but I think it's difficult to make the case that it's equally hard for them (in terms of successfully getting a date) when they have thousands of matches and many men I know have none.

Thousands of matches isn’t a good thing. If you ever have the opportunity ask a female friend to show you the kind of messages they get on dating apps. They’re pretty appalling. It genuinely worries me that there are so many creeps out there. The men you know may not be getting many matches but at least the ones they get are more than likely from relatively normal people. If I had to sort through the garbage women do…

If thousands of matches are not a good thing, why keep swiping? They could choose instead to talk to the matches they already have. The matches they have are already the ones they've screened for.
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