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Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

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Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#151

Post by shkkmo »

belter wrote: post #141
kuroguro wrote: post #6

There's plenty of valid criticisms against crypto, I feel like they've picked some of the weakest ones. > cryptocurrencies are used because people think they will one day replace traditional money Maybe a tiny minority, sounds like a strawman. > a contagious story in which people believe because other people believe in it Isn't fiat the same? Money only has value because people believe it has value / will have value…

You also have to keep in mind the context here. The Netherlands is a country that keeps its citizens under a tax slavery, that will make sure 80 to 85 % of all income you earn over the course of your lifetime will be taken away. Taken away in progressive income taxes, property taxes, inheritance taxes, pension taxes etc... Despite the massive levels of taxation citizen benefits are nowhere near the levels of Nordic c…

> They forget to check the percentage that is taken from their salary contributions, what makes it for the middle class at the same high levels of insurance as in the US.

The Netherlands spends half what the US does per person on healthcare.

Their taxes seem to be middle of pack for europe.

Please provide some citations for the numbers you have cited since at a first approximation they seem to be grossly off.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#152

Post by Sargos »

yawaworht1978 wrote: post #86
throwaway6734 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These two aspects are some of my least favorite of the crypto community. Hyping up this future techno utopia without banks, while the real end goal is to increase the amount of real currency in their possession. This doesn't describe the whole community, but a large portion of those on different crypto forums. I have respect for those truly interested in the tech side of things and those looking to make money on a sp…

Indeed, i would like to see how long Buterin would work on eth without funding, savings and rent to pay around the corner.

Vitalik worked on a Bitcoin newsletter and coded blockchains and worked on Ethereum for little to no money for years. He didn't care about money and is as much of a pure tech guy as there is.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#153

Post by X6S1x6Okd1st »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #88
X6S1x6Okd1st wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also really important, police will show up if you are counterfeiting USD. One of the neat things about cryptocurrency is that the supply is not protected by threat of force unlike fiat.

Because if someone comes up with the ability to counterfeit crypto that's it for that crypto. There's no need for it to continue, unlike a nations currency.

Oh yeah if someone counterfeits crypto in general it all comes crashing down.

One note is double spends are kind of like counterfeiting, and they happen on smaller chains regularly, they haven't happened on any of the dominate ones, or proof of stake protected coins.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#154

Post by bpt3 »

rootsandstones wrote: post #145
mortehu wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fiat is slightly different in that the government can guarantee a certain level of demand for it by requiring taxes to be paid in it. If you you don't like jail and have a tax liability in US, you can't think dollars are worthless.

FYI I can pay my taxes in crypto in Switzerland.

Are your taxes calculated in Swiss Francs or Bitcoin?

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#155

Post by TheCoelacanth »

bko wrote: post #77
jokethrowaway wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fiat is backed by weapons. The same weapons that defend your house from other countries and force you to give up half your salary. My main criticism to cryptocurrencies is that they're mostly unbacked. The ones that are backed by Fiat have similar problems to Fiat currency (why would I need that?), the ones that are backed by physical assets are much more interesting - but they don't seem to be the mainstream ones, p…

> Fiat is backed by weapons. What does this mean? It's the currency of a country that has weapons. If someone steals my USD, will US use their weapons to get it back for me? If the value of their currency drops substantially, will they go to war with some unknown power that's causing this drop and reverse the change? Countries also change currencies, often during times of inflation. This is an effectively meaningless…

The weapons are for using against their own residents.

US residents need to pay taxes in USD. If they don't, weapons will be used to force them to pay (most pay voluntarily, but if they escalate far enough, the weapons will come out).

That means US residents need to acquire USD and are willing to trade valuable assets to do so. That makes USD valuable to US residents.

US residents own many valuable non-fiat assets, so non-US residents know that they will be able to find a US resident who will trade them something valuable in exchange. That makes USD valuable to non-US residents.

The same thing is true of more or less every fiat currency that has a non-negligible value.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#156

Post by enchiridion »

charlesmunger8 wrote: post #124
enchiridion wrote: post #117

Could a powerful country just take over Bitcoin as an extension of its fiat? What would happen if tomorrow the federal reserve announced it will exchange 1 BTC for 50000 USD? Obviously there would be an immediate price spike... but then what?

> what would happen cybercrime would skyrocket

Why? Genuine question.

Also say hi to Warren for me

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#157

Post by Blikkentrekker »

koheripbal wrote: post #69
Blikkentrekker wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fiat currency of course never being used in those. Cryptocurrencies are an object of value due to scarcity alone. In that sense, it is no different from various rare materials. The difference with fiat is that governments mandate that it be legal tender, that al who do business must accept it but I am left to wonder, what if I were to open a store and accept bitcoins and euros, as I must operating in an area where eu…

> Fiat currency of course never being used in those. The difference is being able to do it instantly across global distances, thereby circumventing regulators/border checks/banks/etc... > Cryptocurrencies are an object of value due to scarcity alone. This is sort of a silly assertion. Many things are scarce, yet have no value. If I create a new crypto coin, it would have zero value. > it is no different from various…

> This is sort of a silly assertion. Many things are scarce, yet have no value. If I create a new crypto coin, it would have zero value.

But you cannot create a new first coin.

Part of the value is that it was the first, similar to how the first painting ever made by a famous artist, though often of inferior quality to later works, is often more valuable. — there is only first, and that makes it scarcer.

> Raw materials have uses outside their tradability.

I said rare: there are a variety of materials, such as, say, Jade, which have no known industrial application and their value simply comes from their rarity.

> You would likely go bankrupt by the volatility. Most shops make

That is irrelevant to my hypothetical of whether I can use such a scheme to effectively not accept legal tender.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#158

Post by wyager »

X6S1x6Okd1st wrote: post #73
hencq wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but someone from the police will show up if you don't pay your taxes in USD.

Also really important, police will show up if you are counterfeiting USD. One of the neat things about cryptocurrency is that the supply is not protected by threat of force unlike fiat.

Because they’ve done a great job “protecting” the supply of the USD…

Bitcoin’s anti-counterfeiting is a hell of a lot better than the USD’s anti-counterfeiting.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#159

Post by X6S1x6Okd1st »

graeme wrote: post #32
lucb1e wrote: post #5

I was happily surprised to see someone proposing this, assuming it was about PoW when reading the headline... but unfortunately it's just someone trying to time the market on our behalf?! Like, should we also ban stock trading when we expect the next pandemic or .com bubble?

Try steelmanning it. Their argument is that crypto is as worthless as an investment with Bernie Madoff. Therefore, the Netherlands should exit early so its citizens aren’t left holding the bag. That’s their claim to argue against.

It's basically if you've ever read about MMM[1] and thought: Why didn't the government do anything? That's the kind of thought process they are likely in.

Of course in my opinion Madoff & MMM are fundamentally different than cryptocurrencies[2] because there isn't someone at the top who can hide what is happening or issue new coins. Arguably what is happening with Tether might be similar, but that's a very specific thing that you try to target with government intervention instead of blanket banning.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMM_(Ponzi_scheme_company)

[2]: to be clear there are ponzi/madoff schemes in crypto, plenty actually, but if you weight by retail exposure to them they are not that common

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#160

Post by alfonsodev »

dagav wrote: post #136
Hoasi wrote: post #84

> "Cryptocurrencies are essentially neither money nor a financial product, but an example of what Nobel laureate Robert Shiller calls a 'contagious narrative': a contagious story in which people believe because other people believe in it." Which is exactly what money is, to begin with.

Physical money has value because we have an economy. If you have a USD, you can come to the US and spend that dollar. Bitcoin doesn't have an economy, it is literally a meme. The only thing you can do with it is trade it for real money. The value of USD is based on the US economy. The value of Bitcoin is based on people's perception of the value of Bitcoin.

“The value of USD is based on US economy” but far from being an expert I suspect that what is behind at then is human perception and trust, you can choose to keep the token USD or token Bitcoin depending what you perceive as being safer or trustworthy, and some people prefer to have eggs in both baskets.
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