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Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

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141–150 of 211 posts

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#141
post #6

There's plenty of valid criticisms against crypto, I feel like they've picked some of the weakest ones. > cryptocurrencies are used because people think they will one day replace traditional money Maybe a tiny minority, sounds like a strawman. > a contagious story in which people believe because other people believe in it Isn't fiat the same? Money only has value because people believe it has value / will have value…

You also have to keep in mind the context here.

The Netherlands is a country that keeps its citizens under a tax slavery, that will make sure 80 to 85 % of all income you earn over the course of your lifetime will be taken away.

Taken away in progressive income taxes, property taxes, inheritance taxes, pension taxes etc... Despite the massive levels of taxation citizen benefits are nowhere near the levels of Nordic countries like Denmark, Sweden or Finland.

Medical insurance has been privatized and its one of the more expensive in the world. Most Dutch residents will even boast their medical insurance bills are only in the 250 to 350 EUR range has they have been led to believe. They forget to check the percentage that is taken from their salary contributions, what makes it for the middle class at the same high levels of insurance as in the US.

With the exception of a family of 5 persons, who by law, does not have to pay taxes, this has a massive effect of quickly dividing the population into two very distinctive camps:

A camp that has to be very politically docile, as this large amount of population, are completely dependent on governments handouts around social housing, child subsidies, the famous and numerous "Uitkering's", etc....

The other part of population , a large middle class, is quickly made to understand any additional working efforts, that could produce any additional income will be quickly taken away by very aggressive levels of taxation. So you better go home at 4 PM or work just 4 days per week, as it is common in the country. This is sometimes touted by political spin doctors as an example of the middle class "high quality of life". It does have it advantages, but its simply not the core reason.

This makes for a very stable and homogeneous society. All those common rows of all equal houses that see in these Dutch pictures or google maps... Makes you come out of your house, look at the house of neighbor and think, neither is doing much better than me and neither I am doing that bad :-))

The country also has much smaller levels of income disparity compared to what is seen in many other European countries. It is common to see in a Dutch company, just 4 to 6 different salary levels including the CEOs. Some European countries like Spain or Italy ( lets not even talk the US), have income level between regular workers and company administrators can have a 40x to 50x difference.

So, although crypto at the moment, has serious issues around its climate impact and scalability of transaction settlement, that is the last thing in this gentleman mind. He is thinking, control and nothing else. The reason why he considers it "urgent" is the lack of societal control it will imply.

Depending on your social values and priorities, you might see this statement from a Central Bank head as: - The biggest argument against crypto. or - The biggest endorsement of the advantages of crypto currency as touted by many of its believers.

The future of crypto as a concept will probably not be Bitcoin, Ethereum but something else. Still, we should not forget what is also at play here is political control of citizens. The last thing on the mind of this central bank is investors protection.

You just have to see the historical record of this specific central bank, and their 100% incompetence in protecting these same investors, they so much talk about now, against the past bankruptcy of large Dutch financial institutions.

The Netherlands is currently a healthy democracy, but you just have to look around. The more repressive societies are the most interested in abolishing crypto or forcing citizens to adopt a "specific" digital currency: https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-creates-its-own-digital-c...

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#142
post #111
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fiat is slightly different in that the government can guarantee a certain level of demand for it by requiring taxes to be paid in it Until they switch currencies. For instance Brazil did this > The cruzeiro (Portuguese pronunciation: [kɾuˈzejɾu]) was the currency of Brazil from 1942 to 1986 (two distinct currencies) and again between 1990 and 1993. In August 1993 it was replaced by the short-lived Cruzeiro Real, it…

Declaring certain currency notes to be valueless doesn't change the demand for currency. It reduces supply. But people still need it to pay taxes and the government will only pay for services with it. In most developed nations, the government is responsible for 20%+ of the total GDP, so that's an inbuilt "floor" to the value of its currency. So yes, the government can change the currency and the notes, but they contr…

Right, but it doesn't really help me as someone holding the currency. I can have X dollars in my bank account, government can then declare these dollars are worthless or you have to change it to this new currency at some rate that is set by the state. Neither of these things are good for me and I would hardly call that the government "backing" the currency that I hold.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#143
post #32
post #5

I was happily surprised to see someone proposing this, assuming it was about PoW when reading the headline... but unfortunately it's just someone trying to time the market on our behalf?! Like, should we also ban stock trading when we expect the next pandemic or .com bubble?

Try steelmanning it. Their argument is that crypto is as worthless as an investment with Bernie Madoff. Therefore, the Netherlands should exit early so its citizens aren’t left holding the bag. That’s their claim to argue against.

Steelmanning. Nice, learned something. I like it.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#145
post #15
post #6

There's plenty of valid criticisms against crypto, I feel like they've picked some of the weakest ones. > cryptocurrencies are used because people think they will one day replace traditional money Maybe a tiny minority, sounds like a strawman. > a contagious story in which people believe because other people believe in it Isn't fiat the same? Money only has value because people believe it has value / will have value…

Fiat is slightly different in that the government can guarantee a certain level of demand for it by requiring taxes to be paid in it. If you you don't like jail and have a tax liability in US, you can't think dollars are worthless.

FYI I can pay my taxes in crypto in Switzerland.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#146
post #84

> "Cryptocurrencies are essentially neither money nor a financial product, but an example of what Nobel laureate Robert Shiller calls a 'contagious narrative': a contagious story in which people believe because other people believe in it." Which is exactly what money is, to begin with.

Money is a contagious story plus guns.

I need to acquire USD to pay my tax bill, otherwise men with guns come and take away my house and put me in jail. That establishes a baseline value for USD.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fiat is backed by weapons. The same weapons that defend your house from other countries and force you to give up half your salary. My main criticism to cryptocurrencies is that they're mostly unbacked. The ones that are backed by Fiat have similar problems to Fiat currency (why would I need that?), the ones that are backed by physical assets are much more interesting - but they don't seem to be the mainstream ones, p…

> Fiat is backed by weapons. The same weapons that defend your house from other countries and force you to give up half your salary This is a very American view of fiat (and governmental role in general). It's a logic that only works if you're talking about the strongest military and associated country out of all alternatives, and at this point it falls apart. How do weapons protect the value of the Angolan kwanza or…

Do Angola and Singapore not have police that enforce that their residents pay their tax bills?

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#149
post #84

> "Cryptocurrencies are essentially neither money nor a financial product, but an example of what Nobel laureate Robert Shiller calls a 'contagious narrative': a contagious story in which people believe because other people believe in it." Which is exactly what money is, to begin with.

Real life currency also has the backing of the economy they represent. That's why USD is "strong" and Zimbabwean dollars were "weak."

Crypto has nothing. It's just environmental destruction and/or pump and dump schemes.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, this type of thinking was applied to the early internet as well. “No one will ever buy anything over the internet, people want stores!” The same lack of imagination is leading to most of these takes.

Except the fundamentals of the Internet were sound and scalable: near instant global communication and commerce. Cyroptocoin fundamentals don't offer much (any?) value over digitized fiat systems once externalities are considered.

> Cyroptocoin fundamentals don't offer much (any?) value over digitized fiat systems once externalities are considered.

If I'm not mistaken, Bitcoin whitepaper was originally about easy P2P payments. Bitcoin has not full-filled this vision yet, but the cryptosphere as a whole is working on this (if you ignore the hype and speculation).

Visa/Mastercard, PayPal, banks can block or prohibit any kind of transactions if they wish so.

Look up stories of sex workers, OnlyFans creators etc about being banned from using these traditional payments systems.

Also look up fees that some banks charge for remittances - those range from 1.5 to 12% of the amount [1], depending where you're sending it. This does not include the cost of getting a bank account and a debit/credit card in those countries. Receiving a SWIFT transfer may be an issue if you don't have the necessary documents that explain why you have received the money.

PayPal actually does not even support most of the worlds countries. If you're writing a book you want to sell online, but Paypal doesn't support your country - you will NOT be able to get the money out of the publishing platform (gumroad [2], if you need an example). People are excluded from the creator economy.

Banks in developing countries use legal workarounds to get more fees from merchants using their systems or pay terminals. Merchants often have no choice but to raise prices, accept cash only or use some other kinds of P2P solutions.

And don't get me started on the absolutely insane inheritance taxes in some countries - the state is effectively robbing people (and their descendants) after their death.

[1] https://remittanceprices.worldbank.org/en

[2] https://help.gumroad.com/article/223-payoneer-and-gumroad

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