CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies • Hacker News Board

Re: CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

#171

Post by rspoerri » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 2:13 PM UTC

me_me_me wrote: post #120

rspoerri wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats bs. Everything that requires energy advances global warming. Bitcoin is a disaster compared to any other value or money transfer. Everybody mining bitcoin is using the cheapest energy source available which currently is coal. Get your facts right, stop destroying the world of our children!

> Bitcoin is a disaster compared to any other value or money transfer. You mean to facilitate money transfer between banks it only take a bit of electricity. But you dont consider the needs of whole organisation called bank to work. Staff commuting, maintenance, running bills etc. All of that produces pollution. So your simple analogy suddenly is not that simple (as any simple explanation to complicated problem). > s…

> You mean to facilitate money transfer between banks it only take a bit of electricity....

So nice to see that bitcoin is giving out loans. Is available to my grandmother. Can be used to pay at every corner in the city. Or does it?

> Gtfo, what is this republican rally??

I am always amused by the limited world view. Its not about democrats or republicans, in this world (you know, that thing outside the us?). There are more political views than their agendas.

> How about we stop fossil fuel lobbies attacking green initiatives, ...

It's nice that you know so many other things that should be addressed as well. But it's no reason not to stop bitcoin from wasting all that power.

Re: CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

#172

Post by Bishizel » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 2:16 PM UTC

henearkr wrote: post #71

knuthsat wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Global warming above 2°C will happen just by the nature of n-th order effects. Trees burning, methane stored in tundra getting released can have decades of CO2 equivalent emissions compared to 1 human civilization year. Bitcoin has a small effect compared to everything else we do and everything else that will happen. Human civilization isn't exactly living as optimal as possible and I do not see why Bitcoin needs to…

Maybe? Although, which one do you think is easier to ban? If cryptocurrencies were to disappear tomorrow, would the everyday life change? And if we ban meat? Which one do you think will encounter the most resistance? So which one is the most feasible? And then, which one do you think has the best return on investment?

But should we focus our efforts banning things that won’t change the way people have to live? That seems like an easy way to fail.

Further, Bitcoin is not the main issue. BTC being clean or dirty is based on the underlying issue of dirty power generation. How about we ban dirty power generation instead? Attack the actual, underlying problem.

Re: CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

#173

Post by Bishizel » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

knuthsat wrote: post #77

henearkr wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe? Although, which one do you think is easier to ban? If cryptocurrencies were to disappear tomorrow, would the everyday life change? And if we ban meat? Which one do you think will encounter the most resistance? So which one is the most feasible? And then, which one do you think has the best return on investment?

Best return on investment is most definitely finding new ways to produce energy and new ways to sequester greenhouse gases. Anything else is a minor dampener to an exponential process. Getting rid of Bitcoin is absolutely nothing compared to our exponentially increasing energy needs. Lowering greenhouse emissions to 0 today would still result in dire consequences when the temperature increase comes, just from the mas…

It came to fruition because it’s creating vast new wealth in a fashion that is directly competitive to old wealth. It’s also easy because climate change is a real, pressing existential crisis. Take this with the caveat that most people won’t think past the headline, so lots of people don’t get to the obvious conclusion of “the way we generate power is the root problem”

Lowering to zero doesn’t solve the problem, but it would help give us a longer runway.

Re: CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

#174

Post by celticninja » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 2:21 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #158

celticninja wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look just be honest with yourself, you were in a prime position to buy bitcoin early (you are on HN so you likely heard about it before, let's say 2013). And you didn't, so your vested interest is in it failing. The environmental considerations just give you the flag to rally around. Your comment history has plenty of negative mentions of cryptocurrency/BTC but I cannot find anything related to environmental concern…

> And you didn't, so your vested interest is in it failing. Why does he have a "vested interest" in Bitcoin failing? Are you sure you know what "vested" means? :-) Do you mean to say that he wants Bitcoin to fail because he's bitter? We will see if Bitcoin is relevant in 5-10 years from now. My guess: it will be a niche thing with a very narrow set of uses. If anything, you sound a bit like a Bitcoin supporter (maybe…

I know what vested means, there can be a financial element to it but that is not a requirement:

definition: 'a personal reason for involvement in an undertaking or situation'

The personal reason here may well be bitterness, but that was your word not mine.

If, in 2011, we were discussing what bitcoin succeeding looks like, I would have said that if it was worth 5 figures (and I would have meant low 5 figures, so $10,000) it had succeeded. If, alongside the value, my parents knew what it was (not through me) then it would have succeeded.

In truth I would also have expected it to take closer to 20 years to reach that point. So in my mind it has succeeded. It is still around over a decade later, it surpassed the dollar value I would have assigned success even without this latest runup. There are few people in the world, who have internet acccess, who have not heard of it.

So I disagree with you, because on metrics I would have measured it with in 2011 it has met and exceeded them. Therefore it has succeeded already. I have skin in the game, so perhaps I have a vested interest, but only in as much as it would make me more money than it already has. And I dont need more money. If it went to zero tomorrow my life would not change.

Re: CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

#175

Post by Bishizel » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #137

skrebbel wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, pyramid games are routinely banned. There are good arguments to be made that Bitcoin is a pyramid game much more than a "asset class in a bubble".

He does not say that though: he acts like he wants to protect the 'dumb people' (dumb is mine: but what else fits?) by banning stuff (which NL seems to want to do more and more) (I am Dutch). Does not explain why he would not want to ban stock markets as assets like MSFT are massively overvalued as well and will crash badly next crisis. Sure cryptocurrencies have no intrinsic value and energy waste etc etc but bannin…

I think it’s tough to assign value like this. People argued that the internet had no real value for basically all of the late 90s.

Re: CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

#176

Post by me_me_me » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 2:24 PM UTC

rspoerri wrote: post #171

me_me_me wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bitcoin is a disaster compared to any other value or money transfer. You mean to facilitate money transfer between banks it only take a bit of electricity. But you dont consider the needs of whole organisation called bank to work. Staff commuting, maintenance, running bills etc. All of that produces pollution. So your simple analogy suddenly is not that simple (as any simple explanation to complicated problem). > s…

> You mean to facilitate money transfer between banks it only take a bit of electricity.... So nice to see that bitcoin is giving out loans. Is available to my grandmother. Can be used to pay at every corner in the city. Or does it? > Gtfo, what is this republican rally?? I am always amused by the limited world view. Its not about democrats or republicans, in this world (you know, that thing outside the us?). There a…

> I am always amused by the limited world view

Its funny that you say that and then present a 1 dimensional view of the world.

Haven't really addressed my point just running around the issues trying desperately to shift the goalpost. Address my actual point or don't waste my time.

Re: CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

#177

Post by lottin » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 2:26 PM UTC

skylabmelody wrote: post #160

lottin wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is going to buy and sell crypto on the streets, this is just nonsense.

I can understand your fierce will to ban crypto for environmental impact reason. However you cannot ban bitcoin, you just can't, that the whole purpose of its existence. And black markets have always existed and always will.

> you just can't

Sorry, that's not an argument.

Re: CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

#178

Post by me_me_me » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 2:28 PM UTC

rspoerri wrote: post #163

celticninja wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Everybody mining bitcoin... This is just demonstrably false. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/03/09/bitcoin-m... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-27/bitcoin-m... https://www.waterpowermagazine.com/news/newsbitcoin-mining-p... I could go on, but I won't, I just wanted to show how hysterical and full of BS you and people like you are.

How nice that all energy magically appears out of nowhere to generate the power needed by bitcoin. As if the power to heat your meal and home is suddently not needed anymore when you have your nice valuable bitcoins. The world is already struggling to keep up with the rising power requirements from all the sectors, from production, households and transportation. One of the large problems moving to renewable power sou…

>How nice that all energy magically appears out of nowhere to generate the power needed by bitcoin.

How nice that all energy magically appears out of nowhere to generate the power needed by youtube cat videos.

Netflix

Porn

insert anything that uses electricity.

Re: CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

#179

Post by Varqu » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 2:32 PM UTC

tirpen wrote: post #140

Varqu wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how exactly do you make it illegal? Arrest people that own Bitcoin? Or ban them from the internet. Good luck with that :)

Yes, some people will ignore the law and it's impossible for law enforcement to catch all law breaker. Great insight. I guess we might just as well make murder legal as well, since it's some people will still kill each other no whether it's illegal or not.

There is a big difference between things that are directly harming to other people and things that the gov bans because they think they know better :)

It is basically saying: You are forced to participate in our inflationary financial system or we will arrest you.

Re: CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

#180

Post by rspoerri » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 2:35 PM UTC

celticninja wrote: post #168

rspoerri wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How nice that all energy magically appears out of nowhere to generate the power needed by bitcoin. As if the power to heat your meal and home is suddently not needed anymore when you have your nice valuable bitcoins. The world is already struggling to keep up with the rising power requirements from all the sectors, from production, households and transportation. One of the large problems moving to renewable power sou…

the comment I replied to said all bitcoin mining is done exclusively with coal. I never made claims, I merely pointed out the original statement was incorrect and offered evidence to support it. So what is your point in relation to that? Am I wrong? Is my evidence not sufficient? Do you also believe all bitcoin mining is powered by coal?

I dont assume that bitcoin is only powered by coal. Some website mentioned 85%. With its 150 TWh it uses thats a 130TWh in from coal power plants. Thats about 24 Coal power plants that could be shut down, if bitcoin would disappear today (usa has 241 coal power plants with approximately 1300 THw produced). I do think that will make a difference, especially because the power demand of bitcoin is getting worse.