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Software is eating the car

spectrum.ieee.org

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Re: Software is eating the car

#381

Post by jedberg »

eaa wrote: post #365
jedberg wrote: post #241

The problem with this is that auto companies are not software companies. They may have good engineers there, but they are hamstrung with a culture that considers software as an add on cost center at best. Perfect example: I have no way to report software bugs to Honda. I've found a few and collected detailed reproduction data. The best I can do is give it to a sales rep in the service department and hope they send it…

Have you tried to contact an official car service center or official car dealer on this topic? They may have no way to "report a bug", but they have to deal with customer complaints and issues which need service. It is possible that car service will actually report an issue to SW vendor.

> The best I can do is give it to a sales rep in the service department and hope they send it "up to corporate".

Re: Software is eating the car

#382

Post by clouddrover »

crysin wrote: post #258
wyre wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is special about Tesla that makes them not a “normal” car that happens to be electric?

Tesla cars have a distinct look and a "prestige" whereas something like Ford's new F-150 will look nearly identical to its gas guzzling brother. There's an ego carried behind Telsa's branding and marketing that other car manufacturers don't feed into even in their own EV offerings.

Many car manufacturers advertise the prestige of their brands. One of the reasons the Porsche 911 has the highest profit margin of any car is the prestige of the Porsche brand.

Here are some examples of how Porsche advertises its electric cars:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92sXWVxRr0g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m31EgQkswg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gozMJnzZhU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Abq-ZjJZ4oo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvGr0uDKthI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0793euQNL8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBRwF0LU3Ys

Re: Software is eating the car

#383

Post by foobiekr »

SavantIdiot wrote: post #3

Short answer to the lede: no, the industry cannot cope. Or rather, it will limp along with bloatware, bugs, and malware exactly the same way we see desktop OSes bloat, or the way we see routers and set-top boxes hacked to become botnets. In my 40+ years in the industry I've yet to see code get SMALLER. With the exception of Linux kernel 1.0 in the 90's which was a step backwards into smaller, more compact code, code…

Being as good as the desktop experience would be amazing. Realistically it will be much, much worse than the desktop experience because the auto companies are far, far worse at software than even 1990s Microsoft. You are talking about an industry where OTA updates are considered a major and challenging technology and multiple instances of bricking have occurred.

Re: Software is eating the car

#384

Post by hallway_monitor »

jjav wrote: post #309
potta_coffee wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when is power steering a "smart" feature? Power locks and windows are mechanical devices, solenoids powered by the car battery. The only computerized feature you listed is cruise control and we've had that for years and years. I don't think that this is an "either / or" proposition where we have either a car running off bloated software or a car limited to 1950's features. As far as I'm concerned, cars from the…

> The only computerized feature you listed is cruise control Cruise control doesn't have to have any electronics at all either, earlier cars had vacuum actuated cruise control.

Exactly. I remember when the cruise control vacuum actuated cable snapped on my Honda Civic. No more cruise control for me and I could hear the reason why!

Re: Software is eating the car

#385

Post by b112 »

foobiekr wrote: post #383
SavantIdiot wrote: post #3

Short answer to the lede: no, the industry cannot cope. Or rather, it will limp along with bloatware, bugs, and malware exactly the same way we see desktop OSes bloat, or the way we see routers and set-top boxes hacked to become botnets. In my 40+ years in the industry I've yet to see code get SMALLER. With the exception of Linux kernel 1.0 in the 90's which was a step backwards into smaller, more compact code, code…

Being as good as the desktop experience would be amazing. Realistically it will be much, much worse than the desktop experience because the auto companies are far, far worse at software than even 1990s Microsoft. You are talking about an industry where OTA updates are considered a major and challenging technology and multiple instances of bricking have occurred.

True but no one can secure anything. Therefore, the last thing I want is a network enabled car.

I have my phone for that.

Re: Software is eating the car

#386

Post by pcarolan »

vannevar wrote: post #7
SavantIdiot wrote: post #3

Short answer to the lede: no, the industry cannot cope. Or rather, it will limp along with bloatware, bugs, and malware exactly the same way we see desktop OSes bloat, or the way we see routers and set-top boxes hacked to become botnets. In my 40+ years in the industry I've yet to see code get SMALLER. With the exception of Linux kernel 1.0 in the 90's which was a step backwards into smaller, more compact code, code…

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who wants a dumb car. Unfortunately, the idea of electric cars has become bound up with the notion of software-driven cars. I want an electric car with analog controls, no touch screens or over-the-air updates, and minimal software. A car that I feel like I own, rather than one I'm getting a click-through license to use.

This feels like a pretty large business opportunity. Completely agree.

Re: Software is eating the car

#387

Post by hallway_monitor »

holoduke wrote: post #354
Goronmon wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you're just making up a strawman here. It's pretty clear (at least to me), that the people who want a dumb car are talking about things integrating with your phone or being displayed on a touch screen. Personally, I really enjoy that with our new van I can listen to a podcast/music through Bluetooth and pause/resume playback through a simple touchscreen without having to fiddle with my phone directly.

Attach your phone to a holder. Buy a Bluetooth adapter from AliExpress and your good to go with any car

Exactly. I don't see why a screen attached to the car is somehow superior to the native screen I've been using for years; just put it somewhere accessible. I've found that the CD player mounted phone holders are insanely convenient in almost every car.

Re: Software is eating the car

#388

Post by kingsuper20 »

judge2020 wrote: post #307
potta_coffee wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when is power steering a "smart" feature? Power locks and windows are mechanical devices, solenoids powered by the car battery. The only computerized feature you listed is cruise control and we've had that for years and years. I don't think that this is an "either / or" proposition where we have either a car running off bloated software or a car limited to 1950's features. As far as I'm concerned, cars from the…

This is missing the point - Person A wants their next car to have certain features, but person B also wants their next car to have certain features which person A doesn't want. Car companies aren't going to make 200 car variants with different features combinations, they're just going to group all the features people want into new cars and ship it to everyone. To stay competitive they just put out whatever it going t…

I was going to say something like this, that products (like a lot of things) are a combination of multiple users' wants, but I'd say that the main problem here is that the implementations themselves are becoming more monolithic.

The extreme case (as you mention) is the moment you stick in a touch screen and a fair amount of intelligence. You might as well put a jillion features in there plus you save money on physical controls.

They used to be capable of building cars with numerous option packages in the 1960's and 1970's, it's pretty remarkable. The 1969 Camaro alone had probably a dozen different engines available from 3 families.

Re: Software is eating the car

#389

Post by princeb »

crysin wrote: post #258
wyre wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is special about Tesla that makes them not a “normal” car that happens to be electric?

Tesla cars have a distinct look and a "prestige" whereas something like Ford's new F-150 will look nearly identical to its gas guzzling brother. There's an ego carried behind Telsa's branding and marketing that other car manufacturers don't feed into even in their own EV offerings.

Teslas look like Kias.

this was a big thing in the early 10s when electric cars looked like i3s and twizys. everyone wanted a normal looking car and tesla was the first one to make a normal looking car.

now priuses and leafs look normal and tesla is making cybertrucks.

Re: Software is eating the car

#390

Post by kingsuper20 »

SavantIdiot wrote: post #3

Short answer to the lede: no, the industry cannot cope. Or rather, it will limp along with bloatware, bugs, and malware exactly the same way we see desktop OSes bloat, or the way we see routers and set-top boxes hacked to become botnets. In my 40+ years in the industry I've yet to see code get SMALLER. With the exception of Linux kernel 1.0 in the 90's which was a step backwards into smaller, more compact code, code…

regarding simple cars.

I think it's a damn shame that the opportunity for truly simple cars isn't occurring with the advent of mass market EVs. I suppose that ever-increasing safety concerns will push for cars that are more complex.

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