Software is eating the car • Hacker News Board

Re: Software is eating the car

#341

Post by jonplackett » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 9:51 PM UTC

r00fus wrote: post #166

jonplackett wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the exact same stupid thing that happened with DSLR cameras. Old SLR cameras had a ring around the lens for f-stop and another dial on top for shutter speed. New DSLR cameras even now hide all that stuff in a menu on the touch screen, as if it isn't something you want to change ALL THE TIME - and develop instant muscle memory for.

Could be they want you to buy their Pro item where the actually offer reasonable affordances? Most "pro-sumers" wouldn't bother to adjust what the auto-focus calculates anyway.

I'm not convinced about that.

I was using those dials all the time as a 16 year old learning to use a camera. It's really easy - especially when you can set one of them to auto and just control the one you care about - plus so quick when they're on a dial.

But I can believe no one wants to do it now, it's amazing how much a bit of tactile feedback can make a task 100X easier, and something you can do instinctively.

Re: Software is eating the car

#342

Post by p_l » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 9:51 PM UTC

grahamburger wrote: post #332

crooked-v wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mazda has been actively removing touch screens in new models. The screens are still there, but the touch part is replaced with physical controls for cabin features/radio and a puck controller for other stuff.

I know HN loves to hate on touchscreens in cars but I don't really get it. Both cars I own and almost every car I've rented in the last few years (that's quite a few) has had a touchscreen. This is pretty much always how it works: 1) The most used functions have physical buttons and knobs, often on both the steering wheel and the center console 2) Touchscreen is used for uncommonly done things, like adding new Blueto…

Some vendors and models went a bit beyond that (hell, Tesla is even the poster kid for this - coupled with arrogant use of non-automotive screen in early cars that broke from heat).

What GP is talking is return to the design you described, possibly with more focus on car-equivalent of HOTAS and tactile controls.

Re: Software is eating the car

#343

Post by adamc » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 9:51 PM UTC

This terrifies me.

Re: Software is eating the car

#344

Post by at_a_remove » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 9:58 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #181

Nothing worse than automotive software. Buggy, slow, terrible user interfaces, outright dangerous and in many ways much worse than the systems they replace or augment. The automotive industry has a long long way to come - assuming it will happen at all - before they can be said to be responsible software vendors. Case in point: my - former - C class Mercedes that made two pretty good attempts to kill me by slamming o…

I have a stock head unit on my car, based on QnX, I'm told. It has some amazing limitations. I will throw out a couple:

First, you cannot delete radio stations. You can overwrite a radio station, or you can unplug your car battery, but you can't just flat up delete a radio station you have plugged in. CRU, I guess.

Second, it sort of recognizes .mp3 files in the USB drive, but not .wav, and it certainly doesn't understand .m3u playlists. Baffling.

It's just so ... clunky and dumb.

Re: Software is eating the car

#345

Post by randcraw » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 9:59 PM UTC

judge2020 wrote: post #291

crooked-v wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mazda has been actively removing touch screens in new models. The screens are still there, but the touch part is replaced with physical controls for cabin features/radio and a puck controller for other stuff.

Note that backup cameras are now a mandate for US cars: https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/new-backup-camera-rule-c...

My 2019 pickup has a backup camera and it's dumb as a post, even though the rest of the truck fairly bristles with sensors. The camera's view appears when I shift into reverse and goes away when I exit reverse.

I think nobody who prefers simplicity objects to that kind of tech. It's overcomplicated interfaces to basic services that we despise, like a volume slider that requires you to look away from the road and that's too easy to mishandle.

Re: Software is eating the car

#346

Post by kumarsw » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 9:59 PM UTC

Once again, a plea for moderation from those calling for a return to analog gauges. Remember that outside of Tesla, automakers are generally pretty conservative and most computing in cars outside the head unit is decentralized MCUs that don't connect to the internet. And within the head unit, CarPlay/Android Auto has moved most of the work to phones.

Re: Software is eating the car

#347

Post by cmurf » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:00 PM UTC

SavantIdiot wrote: post #3

Short answer to the lede: no, the industry cannot cope. Or rather, it will limp along with bloatware, bugs, and malware exactly the same way we see desktop OSes bloat, or the way we see routers and set-top boxes hacked to become botnets. In my 40+ years in the industry I've yet to see code get SMALLER. With the exception of Linux kernel 1.0 in the 90's which was a step backwards into smaller, more compact code, code…

It's what every industry does. It thinks it's creating value by having more features, when in reality it's just creating more jobs. More middle people who each want a cut.

Re: Software is eating the car

#348

Post by waiseristy » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:02 PM UTC

obidan wrote: post #336

waiseristy wrote: post #139

I'm amazed that in this entire article Autosar wasn't mentioned once. The giant 2 ton elephant in the room here is automotives reliance on god-awful "kitchen sink" style standards. Try reading through the various Autosar docs and ask yourself if you expect robust bug-free code to be written to comply with it. There needs to be a complete cleaning-of-house in automotive software. I2C, Flexray, Ethernet, CAN/CANFD & OB…

I worked in the automotive industry and I can totally confirm. The worse thing is, there are now AUTOSAR experts and AUTOSAR tools and AUTOSAR Tool Experts and within that tool there’s a ARXML generator that’s generated with another tool … There’s no way this can ever become safe, robust, software. The worse part is, there’s so many careers that depend on this obscure skillset that I am unsure a change can come from…

Dont even get me started on the tooling. Vectors, Elektrobits, Dassaults, Conti's, tools are probably one of the biggest drains on collective computation power outside of crypto and ML.

Not to mention working in this space is fucking soul consuming. I was considered an "AUTOSAR expert" for a time, and that essentially meant having enough programming and systems knowledge to work on the entire stack. But never writing a single line of code, only clicking buttons in these god damn tools and watching them crash constantly, loosing hours upon hours of work

Re: Software is eating the car

#349

Post by KineticLensman » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:04 PM UTC

jonplackett wrote: post #221

dylan604 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which DSLR no longer has an aperture and shutter speed knob? I know the MFT mirrorless lost most of the controls, but did the latest Canon/Nikon really do this? My DSLR is eons old, so this is just baffling to me.

I haven't used one for a while so this may have been fixed. But I've never seen a DSLR with the same type of touch manual controls as an old SLR. Someone correct me if I'm wrong and tell me where to buy one!

My Nikon D850 (DSLR) and Z6 (mirrorless) both have separate physical dials for shutter speed and aperture. The D850 has buttons that allow the physical command dials to be used to control ISO, white balance, bracketing intervals and load of other things. Important settings are shown in the viewfinder and top panel and I only really use the rear monitor to check the histogram for over exposure. I almost never need to use the menu system / touchscreen to alter a shooting setting.

Re: Software is eating the car

#350

Post by holoduke » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

SavantIdiot wrote: post #3

Short answer to the lede: no, the industry cannot cope. Or rather, it will limp along with bloatware, bugs, and malware exactly the same way we see desktop OSes bloat, or the way we see routers and set-top boxes hacked to become botnets. In my 40+ years in the industry I've yet to see code get SMALLER. With the exception of Linux kernel 1.0 in the 90's which was a step backwards into smaller, more compact code, code…

Buy a 15 year old car. Our family car is a 2003 Infiniti fx35. Got everything we need. Bluetooth aftermarket adapter from AliExpress and i feel modern as any other car.