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Stripe Tax

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Re: Stripe Tax

#321
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there some specific terms in their legal bits that you're concerned about? Quite a few, but to give an example from high on the list, it appears that a SaaS company would warrant that software sold through Paddle is always bug-free, accept unlimited liability via the related indemnification requirements if it isn't, and yet have no right participate in or even know about any relevant process if something goes wro…

Paddle is fundamentally different to Stripe. As you said they a merchant of record. Your customers purchase via Paddle, manage the subscription etc via them. Disputes would be via them too. Something to bear in mind.

Sure, the model is different, but that still doesn't make signing up to an impossible promise with unbounded liability when you inevitably break it a good idea.

What happens if Paddle are faced with a customer who is getting snotty about a bug and threatening litigation in an expensive jurisdiction? Paddle apparently have the right under their terms to settle that dispute on whatever terms they wish and then pass the entire cost on to the developers. There doesn't appear to be anything requiring those terms to be reasonable nor anything close to what the developer themselves would have had to offer in their own home jurisdiction or if they'd been selling directly to the customer on reasonable terms. As far as we could see, Paddle don't even have to notify the developer that any of this is happening, they can just send the bill at the end.

If anyone from Paddle is reading this and would like to explain publicly why that isn't an existential threat to every SaaS business using their service and what their terms actually mean, that would be very interesting to read. Maybe something like the above scenario would never actually happen. As I mentioned before, I've heard nothing but positive comments about Paddle from various people I know who actually use it. But in that case, there's no need for such one-sided terms, and it's better for everyone if the legal documents say what you really mean instead.

Re: Stripe Tax

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

-—> small <—-

Yes. The comment I responded to said "literally all companies", not "literally all large companies".

They're just using the word "literally" in its ever more popular sense in which it does not mean that it really does apply to all companies.

For example, according to Oxford dictionary https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/englis... "used to emphasize a word or phrase, even if it is not actually true in a literal sense" or Merriam Webster https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literally "used in an exaggerated way to emphasize a statement or description that is not literally true or possible" ; in modern usage, "literally" can be it's own antonym and mean "not literally". Language is fun! :)

Re: Stripe Tax

#323
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's kind of hinted at somewhere in Wayfair that this is really kind of about the defaults when Congress declines to speak. Congress has extremely broad powers to regulate interstate commerce which would let them decide if and how states can make sellers in other states collect for them. So far, Congress has declined to weigh in, and so we get the default. For some things the default is that states cannot do them unl…

Although your belief is a common one even at the highest levels, reality is that Art. 1, §8, cl. 2 is not actually as broad a power as is believed and/or imagined. People are reading something into that clause that did not exist when it was written, nor should it exist today. It is a function of the misunderstanding of what "regulate" means as it is and was meant, rather than what today's manipulators or "designing m…

Fascinating claims. Can you link to any legal treatises that explain this idea further?

Re: Stripe Tax

#324

It's quite obvious both PayPal and Stripe need to account for these terribly burdensome tax laws going into effect next month. The thresholds for most companies (UK excluded) was previously enough for most international sellers to not have to worry about filing for a VAT in multiple foreign countries. However, now they are making it even more burdensome by removing these thresholds entirely. No USA businesses selling…

The only EU threshold change affecting US businesses sending goods directly to EU customers is the removal of the 22 EUR low value consignment relief.

Regardless of sales volume, such businesses were not obliged to file VAT in EU before and will not be after the changes either - they will now be able to file IOSS VAT returns if they wish, though.

The annual thresholds the linked article talks about are all concerning intra-EU cross-border sales, not imports.

Re: Stripe Tax

#325
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably not to enforce standards, but they certainly have the power to create standards and incentivize their use. Much in the same way they can't control speed limits on national highways or the drinking age in various states, yet these laws are largely uniform across the country.

Those rules have to be on a funding source that's plausibly related and it has to be non-coercive. I'm struggling to think of a relevant funding source here.

> Those rules have to be on a funding source that's plausibly related and it has to be non-coercive.

That seems to not be the case in practice. Highway funding is dependent on states setting a legal drinking age no lower than 21. Those two things are not plausibly related. And it's definitely coercive.

Re: Stripe Tax

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's some current Stripe UK pricing, confirmed on their site today. Baseline of 2.9% + £0.20 for international card payments. (It's reduced to 1.4% + 20p for European cards.) Add 2% for currency conversion. The exchange rate used is stated as "the daily mid-market rate provided by our service providers". Add 0.5% for Billing if you're using subscriptions. Add 0.5% more if you're using this new Stripe Tax functional…

I believe the currency conversion charge can be avoided by only charging your customers in your own currency or another currency you have a bank account for. I rarely see a small merchant that takes more than one or at best two currencies. That'd leave you with 20p + 3.9% (international) / 2.4% (European). Compared to Paddle's 5% + $0.50 that could be a good deal depending on how much of your volume happens in Europe…

I believe the currency conversion charge can be avoided by only charging your customers in your own currency or another currency you have a bank account for.

It can, but then your customers get hit with varying exchange rates and potentially high conversion fees on their side. This will not make you popular with your international customers, at least the ones who didn't already back out when they saw a foreign currency anyway. Depending on which research you read, the rate of lost conversions due to lack of local pricing could be as high as 50%.

Within the overall landscape of payment processing options, Stripe looks trapped in an awkward middle ground now.

Above them are the merchants of record. Including currency conversion, international sales using Paddle seem to cost 7% + 35p at current USD/GBP exchange rate and their standard published pricing. But for that, you get real tax compliance.

Then we have Stripe, coming in at 5.9% + 20p (4.4% + 20p for European cards). Even with Stripe Tax, you're missing much of the essential functionality for global tax compliance and the reassuring liability shift, so that extra 1.1% + 15p or even 2.6% + 15p would be the easiest sale since bottled water in a desert to a lot of merchants.

Further down the price spectrum, we have services like GoCardless that are offering direct payment schemes rather than cards (duh) but for a fee of only 2% + 20p including currency conversion. You don't get any built-in tax support here, so it would be fairest to compare with Stripe at 5.4% + 20p or possibly 3.9% + 20p, but that's still quite a difference. And while you have to do your own tax compliance as with all payment processors using this model, you do get other benefits, notably in much improved reliability of collecting payments via direct payment schemes compared to card payments.

I wonder whether Stripe's medium-term goal might be to establish its own merchant of record service, and Stripe Tax in its current form is just the opening move. Otherwise, it doesn't really make sense to me as a strategy. But I have no inside knowledge on this and there are several Stripe people around who probably do, so no doubt if they want to elaborate at this time they will.

Re: Stripe Tax

#327
One of the things I love about Stripe is how much information they give you on the landing page for the product. Code snippets, examples, clear explanations about what the product does; links to developer documents etc.

Re: Stripe Tax

#328
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But compliance was basically non-existent; most people didn't even know that they owed use tax on such sales As a business owner, I would ask myself “how is this my problem?” If a stare has a problem with residents not complying with a tax, I am not sure why a business in another state should care. If I buy a product from China, are they required to collect sales taxes for Montana? Of course not. So not sure why a…

This is my point. It happens with brick and mortar stores, too. The MO/KS border has a large population buildup. It's totally normal to shop in the state that has the best tax rate for your goods. If you apply the ecommerce logic to this, you need to have people show ID at stores so the store can apply the right tax rate. It seems to me the seller's state has just as much claim to sales tax as the buyer's. The seller…

No, you guys are both misunderstanding how the sales sourcing works: it's the address where the sale is deemed to have taken place.

For brick-and-mortar sales, that is the physical location of the store: you will be taxed the appropriate rate for the address of the store. Note that this includes includes online orders picked up from a store location, and in-person orders even if the goods are not actually physically located at the store, such as if they are shipped from a separate warehouse to the store. However, delivery orders might be subject to different rules, depending on the state; some states use the address provided by the customer as the location of the sale, so that in-person sales delivered to out-of-state addresses might not be subject to sales tax.

For online sales, the sale is (now) treated to have occurred at the address provided by the buyer for delivery, because that is the most expedient way to determine address. The EU has made waves about using IP addresses or geolocation to determine the actual location of the buyer at the time the order is submitted, but AFAIK both proposals are DOA due to infeasibility.

It seems to me the seller's state has just as much claim to sales tax as the buyer's. The seller is potentially making use of business development credits etc, etc, originating in their state.

No, the seller's state doesn't have a claim to the sales tax, because sales tax is a tax on the customer not the seller. It is simply collected by the seller because the compliance is easier to enforce. (Caveat: in Hawaii, the GET is a tax on the seller that can be passed on to the customer.)

Re: Stripe Tax

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But compliance was basically non-existent; most people didn't even know that they owed use tax on such sales As a business owner, I would ask myself “how is this my problem?” If a stare has a problem with residents not complying with a tax, I am not sure why a business in another state should care. If I buy a product from China, are they required to collect sales taxes for Montana? Of course not. So not sure why a…

Luckily, my home state of Virginia has exclusions. From what I understand, until congress acts, more lawsuits need to happen from companies challenging states to pay these bullshit taxes. VAT is also a terrible burden.

The trend in courts and legislatures, both in the US and in Europe and the ROW, is toward customer-based tax sourcing and away from seller-based sourcing.

You can thank Amazon for abusing seller-based sourcing for this shift, though it has actually been a decades-long process that began before most people on this forum were born. Amazon simply accelerated the transition.

Re: Stripe Tax

#330
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California is not a member of the SST because it does not currently tax a number of things that are subject to tax under the SST regime. For example, digital goods are taxable in SST states but not in California. Similarly, there are a number of other product categories where CA's taxability classifications do not match the SST's classifications. Generally, the total tax they could collect from remote (non-CA) seller…

The US could really use some national action on sales taxes. I'd like to see Congress make it so a state can only require remote sellers with no physical presence in the state to collect tax for the state if: 1. Tax rates on remote sales are uniform within a zip code. No more having to deal with "123 Fake Street, Hooterville, 65026" having a different tax rate than "124 Fake Street, Hooterville, 65026". (Worse, I rec…

1. Congress does not have that power, as it would interfere with the states' control of in-state commerce. They could however make that a requirement for requiring out-of-state sellers to comply with sales tax.

2. Same as #1.

3. Rates for sales tax generally change every few years as it requires an unbelievably large amount of notification to sellers, service providers, etc. Where sales tax rates change faster than that, it is usually part of a pre-planned and pre-published change in rates occurring over several years. A sales tax rate changing annually is actually fairly uncommon; a sales tax rate changing more frequently than annually (absent special circumstances like COVID19 incentive rates) is extremely rare.

4. This is basically the purpose of the Streamlined Sales Tax, which is an initiative of over two dozen states to streamline sales tax compliance: only a single return is required and it covers all of the member states. However, it is voluntary.

Note that your suggestion for payment is unfeasible, since it would require each payment to also include the tax liability data for every other state, and each state would have to set up a separate bureaucracy to handle money transfer. It's faster and more efficient for taxpayers and states to simply have the taxpayer use existing payment mechanisms to pay each state separately. On the taxpayer side, it's literally seconds more work if you're using a unified tax system (like the SST).

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