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Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

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Re: Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

#481

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

amadeuspagel wrote: post #451

If we ignore all this culture war bullshit for a minute there's a really fascinating issue here. The concrete issue is flight search. When you google "flight from a to b", rather then seeing search results linking to websites for flight search, the first thing you see is the results of Google's own flight search. Is that wrong? What about image search? When you search for "skyline berlin", you'll see images of berlin…

Apparently, Google Flight Search is not even close to the best alternative.1

https://www.frommers.com/slideshows/848046-the-10-best-and-w...

This is interesting because I always thought Matrix from ITA Software, a company Google acquired in 2010, was quite useful.

Wonder if links to Skiplagged get subjugated in Google SERPs.

If Google thinks it can replace other websites by providing better alternatives, that's great. But then the company should get out of the way and let users have a neutral source for a comprehensive inverted index of the rest of the web. If there is nothing else better out there, then let web users determine that for themselves. The index should be a public resource not controlled by one company that can see what users are searching for and engage in "front-running". (Websites that allow crawls by Googlebot, sometimes exclusively, are of course enabling the Google monopoly.)

1. Google bought Frommers in 2012 and nearly killed it. Thankfully the founder reacquired the rights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frommers

Re: Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

#482

Post by mbreese »

kdmccormick wrote: post #456
foolfoolz wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no one is forcing you to use google. you could always pick a different one if you want different results

Yes, obviously, you as a user are free to find another search engine. However, you as a creator are not free to find another universe in which the leading search provider does not use their position of influence to squash any competing products by ranking their own products higher.

But that’s not an argument for making Google a public utility. That’s an argument that they are being anti-competitive. That’s a whole other discussion. And even then, the question isn’t are competitors being harmed, but are consumers being harmed. So long as their products are free, it’s hard to argue that consumers are suffering harm.

(I haven’t heard privacy brought up as a legal measure of harm to consumers, which would be an interesting angle, but I’m not sure how that plays with current law…)

Re: Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

#483

Post by ipaddr »

SilverRed wrote: post #383
ipaddr wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are things that are done locally. You can find a smartphone for under 250 at any phone store. Or by calling a number. I got one by text the other day through my carrier. I can't find an iphone 12 for that online or locally legally and I would have better luck getting a stolen phone cheaper locally. Small business are finding success through facebook and other social platforms. Not sure google is a player here.…

>You can find a smartphone for under 250 at any phone store. These phones all run android or have no features which are required in the modern age. The OP point is that avoiding google is a privilege many do not have. >Small business are finding success through facebook Your competitors are advertising on facebook and google. If you want to compete you have no choice but to do both.

I have no idea where you get the type of iphone you describe online for $250.00. If I was an apple guy I would want to buy new and pay full price so apple had more money to make the products I love.

I didn't upgrade since 2013, and since getting my new phone I found no new features important or even that useful. Having more memory allowed me to download more. Bigger screen doesn't fit in the pocket. Features like split screen or shake twice for the camera ti show up or the new ways to lock and unlock your phone don't really matter.

Re: Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

#484

Post by ascar »

judge2020 wrote: post #469
russian-hacker wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is forcing you to use an electrical company. You could always power your house with a bicycle generator. Therefore, electrical companies shouldn't be regulated as public utilities.

Creating your own power plant, lugging gallons of oil for power generation, or hiring someone to 24/7 power you home via bicycle all cost a few orders of magnitude more than paying the utility company for service, and creating a competing utility company wouldn't make sense competitively in any way, so naturally there's a monopoly. For search engines, it's both easy to switch to a different one as a consumer and it's…

> creating a competing utility company wouldn't make sense competitively in any way, so naturally there's a monopoly

So how come there are countries without a natural monopoly and with competing utility providers?

Also running your own generator with oil isn't a few orders of magnitude (i.e. at least 100x) more expensive. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not even one order of magnitude more expensive, but maybe just twice as expensive.

I also don't think GP's simile is good, but some of your arguments against it are just blatantly false.

Re: Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

#485

Post by anders_p »

dntrkv wrote: post #474
anders_p wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People talking like drilling a well in your backward is on par with typing in a different URL. So how about this, the upfront cost and effort of typing in a different URL is at least a few orders of magnitude easier than drilling a well. You talking like BUILDING A POWER PLANT is on par with drilling a well in your backward. So how about this, the upfront cost and effort of DRILLING A WELL is at least a few orders…

The point is neither drilling a well or building your own power plant are realistic alternatives for 99% of the people. Whereas switching to ddg is a realistic alternative for 99% of the people.

Is that also a realistic alternative for a business?

To just place their ads on DDG? Where only about 2% of consumers are? And a huge part of DDG's users have ad block?

That would be a death sentence for a business, when the competitors have access to >80% of consumers on Google.

The lawsuit is about Google and their customers (the advertisers), NOT their users (who are actually part of the product Google sells).

Re: Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

#486

Post by wyattpeak »

amadeuspagel wrote: post #451

If we ignore all this culture war bullshit for a minute there's a really fascinating issue here. The concrete issue is flight search. When you google "flight from a to b", rather then seeing search results linking to websites for flight search, the first thing you see is the results of Google's own flight search. Is that wrong? What about image search? When you search for "skyline berlin", you'll see images of berlin…

> There are only two clear, non-arbitrary rules

I don't see any problem with having arbitrary rules so long as they roughly capture the spirit of the outcome people want. The eight-hour workday is an arbitrary rule. The age of majority is an arbitrary rule. Zoning boundaries are arbitrary.

They all capture something we (most of us) fundamentally want, but the specific lines are approximate or convenient or customary.

Re: Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

#487

Post by judge2020 »

ascar wrote: post #484
judge2020 wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Creating your own power plant, lugging gallons of oil for power generation, or hiring someone to 24/7 power you home via bicycle all cost a few orders of magnitude more than paying the utility company for service, and creating a competing utility company wouldn't make sense competitively in any way, so naturally there's a monopoly. For search engines, it's both easy to switch to a different one as a consumer and it's…

> creating a competing utility company wouldn't make sense competitively in any way, so naturally there's a monopoly So how come there are countries without a natural monopoly and with competing utility providers? Also running your own generator with oil isn't a few orders of magnitude (i.e. at least 100x) more expensive. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not even one order of magnitude more expensive, but maybe just t…

> So how come there are countries without a natural monopoly and with competing utility providers?

Local governments own most U.S. utility lines and pipes, so a competing for-profit utility would have to go against the not-for-profit public service, leaving low to no room for profit and no reason to even compete.

Fiber/cable/dsl lines are one of the few U.S. utilities with competition because the performance/reliability/features of the service can vary greatly and because almost no local governments ran their own ISP before private companies came in and ran their lines. I can bet that any area with a municipal ISP has a very low chance of seeing xfinity/att run their own fiber if they're not already servicing the area.

Re: Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

#488

Post by adrr »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #409
adrr wrote: post #95

But I have multiple choices for email, search, video hosting and browsers. I don’t have any choice for water, electricity, sewer, on any other public utility. I am sure there are a bunch of people on here that don’t use any Google products and are using DuckDuckGo, Firefox, ProtonMail, Vimeo. There are many choices.

I'm surprised I haven't seen much in the responses to this comment that the issue isn't so much that consumers have other options (though given how high Google's search reach is, how relevant is that if hardly anyone does), it's that for most businesses your option is either have a strong search presence on Google or go out of business. There is just no viable path to avoid Google as a business when they control 80+…

Do you Google shoes to find shoes,some workout shorts or any consumer product line? Search is irrelevant for any consumer brand from a discovery standpoint point. What do you Google from a consumer perspective?

Re: Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

#489

Post by SilverRed »

ipaddr wrote: post #468
SilverRed wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardly any of firefox is using rust. Servo was abandoned. I think the only rust part of FF right now is the CSS engine.

Servo was abandoned after all of the fanfaire? Was a reason ever given? I thought we were in the servo era.

Mozilla cut a bunch of jobs and the servo team was one of the teams cut. The servo project is not officially canceled but there is no clear future for it.

Re: Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

#490

Post by Manuel_D »

russian-hacker wrote: post #465
foolfoolz wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no one is forcing you to use google. you could always pick a different one if you want different results

No one is forcing you to use an electrical company. You could always power your house with a bicycle generator. Therefore, electrical companies shouldn't be regulated as public utilities.

Yes, you have to use the municipal electricity. You cannot lay your own power lines, it's illegal. And in most urban areas, you can't run your own generator for emissions restrictions. You also can't power your home with a bicycle. Even champion bicyclists output 50-100 watts.

Using Bing, DuckDuckGo, or other Google alternatives are incomparably easier than not using utilities like electricity and plumbing. I struggle to see how one can honestly make this comparison.

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