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The price of lithium-ion batteries has declined by 97% in the last three decades

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Re: The price of lithium-ion batteries has declined by 97% in the last three decades

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Old car batteries are at the end of their life because they have low capacity or have shorted cells.

A battery with only 50% capacity is pretty useless for a car but if you get it for cheap, its a great deal for a home battery.

The realities of batteries is that most of the cells will be at 90% capacity while a few will have dropped to 50%. So recycling really can be just plucking out the good cells and breaking down the few old cells.

Those 90% cells will also have a pretty nice degradation curve as most of the loss happens within the first few years of operating.

Re: The price of lithium-ion batteries has declined by 97% in the last three decades

#302
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rest of the world doesn't live in high density built up areas. Many small crops farming trains in rural areas can not and will not be allowed to run power through the tracks in above ground situations.

The rest of the world uses overhead lines for powering trains (I'm a bit shocked to learn that this is not the norm in the US, actually)

At least in the UK, a 3rd rail was common. IDK about the rest of the world but wouldn't surprise me.

Some major cities in the US had overhead powered "trolleys". But, car lobbies destroyed those :(.

Re: The price of lithium-ion batteries has declined by 97% in the last three decades

#303
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember a lot of stuff having NiMH for a long time throughout the 90s, seemed like it took LiIon a lot longer to catch on.

We raced electric RC cars in the 90s (really my dad and brother - I mostly just liked the smells and ideas). But I know my brother said to win they always had to have fresh as new batteries and as I recall they were NiMH

Yes, performance of a battery declined over time, just as "battery health" declines on your phone today, for the same reasons. Mostly due to surface oxidation of the electrodes iirc.

Lithium-ion was never a good idea due to the fire hazard (in a crash they would just straight up explode, not even just cause a raging uncontrollable fire like LiPo, just boom) and Lithium-polymer could not support the necessary discharge rates (which I believe was also true of li-ion at the time too...). Early LiPo packs were only rated to like 0.5C or 1C peak discharge - this means, for a 2 amp-hour pack, 1C would be a discharge rate of 2 amps. Even then the packs did not really do well at their rated discharge rates - NiMH packs were far more tolerant of abuse in terms of discharge rates, in some cases you could push well beyond the rated spec and they would take it for a year or two's worth of sessions.

I was an "early adopter" on electric R/C airplanes back in the day (this would have been like 2000-2004) and the early stuff I used was mostly repurposed stuff from electric cars. The changeover to 4/5 or 2/3rds sub-C cells was a big deal at the time, the first "good" packs I owned were something called "HeCells" around 1800mAH or 2000 mAH, I also used KAN 1100mah cells. What I finally settled on at the time were these Sanyo "1950FAUP" cells which were extraordinary performers - we could push those cells to 70-80 amps peak discharge and they would take it. So in terms of the way LiPos are rated today[0], that is 40C discharge. This would only be doable for short periods, but it is necessary for launch and climbout (when the motor is running flat-out and the wing is basically stalled). Without the ability to sustain those currents it becomes very difficult to launch. Even still we did not "taxi" them like a normal airplane (or a normal model airplane), just wasn't enough power to get off the ground without a paved strip.

We typically expected about 10-15 minutes of flight time if you were flying normally, maybe 8-10 if you were really hotdogging it. So that means we averaged about 6C over the course of a flight (higher during climbout, less during cruising).

Another unsung miracle is how much motor technology has improved over the same period. My early motors were, again, repurposed brushed motors from Graupner's electric car lineup. We later moved onto some brushed Kyosho "magnetic mayhem" car motors that could push even higher levels of current. There was a Czech company called "Mega" who was an early mover on small neodymium brushless motors and that was a big deal at the time, they were far more powerful and far more efficient. Nowadays you don't even think about it, they're just a commodity, but at the time even a small brushless motor would run you about $130 or so!

[0] (tangent but it's kinda weird that NiCd and NiMH cells have traditionally been specced in amps but LiPo cells are specced in terms of "C discharge", obviously it's trivial to move between the two if you know the capacity of the pack but there's a definite difference in "style" of how the discharge rates are represented here...)

Re: The price of lithium-ion batteries has declined by 97% in the last three decades

#304

Although Li-Ion cells are getting cheaper and cheaper every year, it still is worth salvaging the good ones from depleted laptop battery packs. When a laptop battery pack is gone it's almost always the case of one, max two, 18650 elements that failed, not the whole pack. I've built some good power banks using empty shells (very cheap on Ebay, Aliexpress etc.) and fitting inside the good cells salvaged that way. They…

Parallel cells will automatically balance as the charged cells feed the discharged cells. There is absolutely no point in trying to balance them.

cells will definitely drift a little bit over time and they absolutely do need to be balanced.

(or else overall pack capacity and discharge performance will be lost - the discharge curves are not linear, when a cell is "dead" it drops rapidly, and that means you've effectively lost that chunk of your pack in terms of capacity and ability to discharge).

it's not instant of course, so it's not like you need to do it every single time, but the trend over time is definitely for them to move away from ideal balance with multiple charge/discharge cycles rather than into balance

Re: The price of lithium-ion batteries has declined by 97% in the last three decades

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We used a Lithium D cell in a prototype wireless product at a startup I worked at in 1989. The cells were pre-production samples. I forget the name of the company that was producing them now (I think it was a Japanese company - there were no logos on these batteries), but we were warned not to let them short out as they would go off like a 1/4 stick of dynamite. We were pretty careful with them, but we did have a uni…

How much better than the competition were they then? Did you understand why you were using such a dangerous alternative?

We needed long battery life - 3 years for a small 8051-based board with a data radio (kind of like wifi in 1989) that turned on every second or so. We created a power control ASIC that kept the 8051 off most of the time - it would wake up when data was available for processing. This was a proof of concept project for the military not a consumer item.

Re: The price of lithium-ion batteries has declined by 97% in the last three decades

#306
post #224

Nice that the cost has come down. Unfortunately, that which makes electric cars and planes feasible, namely energy density (Wh/litre) and specific energy (Wh/kg), has not improved that rapidly. The article mentions a factor of 3.4 over 30 years for energy density, ie 4% p.a., or doubling every 17 years. I think electric aircraft need another doubling or two in specific energy to become feasible, so another few decade…

You can't just forward project like that. The question is what people are working on. So far people main concern has been reduction in price.

This has reshaped and is reshaping the supply chain, has localized production and has massive improved production efficiency. Now we are slowly starting to approximate production of a scale and efficiency where we are approaching raw materials cost.

A huge amount of effort has now shifted into improving density as that is a vector to reduce cost. Huge money is flowing into silicon and lithium metal anode study.

There is some hope to get there faster.

Re: The price of lithium-ion batteries has declined by 97% in the last three decades

#307
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AA is a form-factor, not a chemical technology. You can get lithium AA batteries. You probably mean alkaline cells have not gotten cheaper.

And it's an excellent example. Technology gets better until efficiencies are maxed out and battery cell production can't be an exception. The only big outlier has been computer chips, where slowly shrinking cost per square mm (if it even sank?) was an insignificant footnote compared to the ever increasing ability to pack in more per unit of surface area. Lithium batteries have far more in common with alkaline batteri…

Most technology follows an S curve. It starts out slow with initial experimentation until most of the dead ends and pitfalls are eliminated, then there is a period of rapid growth as the tech matures and gains mass market acceptance, then it levels off with all of the easy gains mined out and you see only incremental improvements moving forward.

The middle part of the S curve is when you see the dumbest articles about the technology, with people extrapolating the growth linearly and talking about how it will rule the world in a few years.

Re: The price of lithium-ion batteries has declined by 97% in the last three decades

#308

Although Li-Ion cells are getting cheaper and cheaper every year, it still is worth salvaging the good ones from depleted laptop battery packs. When a laptop battery pack is gone it's almost always the case of one, max two, 18650 elements that failed, not the whole pack. I've built some good power banks using empty shells (very cheap on Ebay, Aliexpress etc.) and fitting inside the good cells salvaged that way. They…

The DIY energy storage community is always on the hunt for warehouse sales, closeouts, auctions, etc... on battery packs. There is a cottage industry around buying them up and "shucking" them for the 18650s. It's a lot of work and requires some luck, but you can get hundreds of unused 18650s for like $.50 each.

Re: The price of lithium-ion batteries has declined by 97% in the last three decades

#309
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious, what kind of projects do you do with those batteries, what is their use for? Thank you

E-cigarettes or cannabis vaper if I were to guess, this is (other than RC drones) the only thing where you need the rated discharge current.

Bingo, it’s the nicotine vapor

Re: The price of lithium-ion batteries has declined by 97% in the last three decades

#310
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If batteries do not make progress fast enough, synthetic fuels might be a temporary(?) solution. With these we can have the advantage of the high energy-density of hydrocarbon fuels for use cases like airplanes without having the climate effect of fossil fuels. Remember that the problem with fossil fuels is that they increase the amount of carbon in (short term) circulation which is what leads to further accumulation…

> Producing synthetic fuels would remove carbon from the environment before releasing it on use again, leading to a net-zero effect. Unfortunately, that assumes producing those synthetic fuels has no carbon output other than the fuel itself.

If you could use wind/solar for the energy source that would be a net improvement and not just net-zero.
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