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Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

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Re: Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

#21

Post by CalChris »

MR4D wrote: post #7
SiVal wrote: post #3

This past weekend was to have been the annual vigil in the park in Hong Kong where thousands come out every year on June 4 in remembrance of what really happened in Tiananmen Square. This year, the park was empty. Not just a few, but empty. Those in power made statements in the Mainland "media", whose job is to persuade people to support those in power, about how misinformation needed to be eliminated and the terrori…

> the end Cicero was silenced by those who were taking power. This is a spin on the fact that he was a participant in the murder of Caesar. Cicero was trying to take back power that had been lost to a very popular Leader by participating in the murder of said leader.[0] The killers and conspirators involved were all hunted down and killed. [0] - for those not up on Roman institutions, Dictator had a different role th…

Cicero wasn't involved in the murder of Caesar. He was more republican than aristocrat and thus not trusted by the Liberatores. Also he was very anti-Anthony: The Philippics, 14 speeches in 44 and 43 given after the death of Caesar.

Another triumvirate was formed after the death of Caesar with Anthony, Octavian and Lepidus. The proscriptions were from that triumvirate and not just Anthony. Cicero favored Octavian but as future emperor, Octavian favored Octavian. Antony certainly hated Cicero and Octavian didn't find Cicero all that useful and well, that was that.

Re: Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

#22

Post by CalChris »

greenwich26 wrote: post #20
edmundsauto wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before we laud him as a saint, wasn't Cicero the guy who felt the plebian/patrician divide was just and right? My (poor) memory is that he was across the aisle from Caesar under the auspices of "no commoners" as well as "no dictators".

Cicero was a conservative in some ways. But I don't think he was particularly prejudiced or classist, for the time. Remember that he was technically a plebeian himself, although obviously a privileged and successful one.

Cicero's father was of the equestrian order, not patrician but definitely not plebeian. Think upper middle class from the midwest who goes to the right schools and ends up in DC.

Re: Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

#23

Post by thaumasiotes »

gerdesj wrote: post #12
SiVal wrote: post #3

This past weekend was to have been the annual vigil in the park in Hong Kong where thousands come out every year on June 4 in remembrance of what really happened in Tiananmen Square. This year, the park was empty. Not just a few, but empty. Those in power made statements in the Mainland "media", whose job is to persuade people to support those in power, about how misinformation needed to be eliminated and the terrori…

"in remembrance of what really happened in Tiananmen Square." That event is still remembered across the world. Recently the Register noted that "Tank man" vanished for a while from certain search engines but has made some re-appearances again. It may also surprise you to learn that "Cicero sic in omnibus, et Brutus aderat" (Big C puked in the bus and Brutus had a rat) I understand where you are coming from and I thin…

> "Cicero sic in omnibus, et Brutus aderat"

This would appear to mean "Cicero [was] this way in everything, and Brutus was there", which comes across as two clauses with absolutely no connection between them. On the other hand, it is comprehensible Latin, unlike "semper ubi sub ubi". Is it a quote from a real source, or was it composed purely for the sake of sounding like English when read in the British standard Latin pronunciation?

( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_English_pronunciat... )

Re: Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

#24

Post by anonytrary »

> I have myself long owed a debt of hearty laughter to a French translator who rendered “Englishmen always love an underdog” as “Les Anglais aiment toujours le ventre du chien,” or Englishmen love the belly of the dog.

I don't find this weird. There are plenty of English phrases that have seemingly literal translations in other languages (when you translate back to English), and vice-versa. For example in Hindi (and at least a few dialects), there's a phrase that translates to "you're eating my head". This phrase does not literally mean that, it means: "you're pushing my buttons" or "you're driving me crazy". But "you're pushing my buttons" and "you're driving me crazy" are both English phrases that also should not be taken literally. Both the non-literal Hindi and English phrases are understood to mean "you're annoying me, but I love you, so I'm using this phrase instead of actually getting mad at you".

Re: Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

#25

Post by philipov »

CalChris wrote: post #22
greenwich26 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cicero was a conservative in some ways. But I don't think he was particularly prejudiced or classist, for the time. Remember that he was technically a plebeian himself, although obviously a privileged and successful one.

Cicero's father was of the equestrian order, not patrician but definitely not plebeian. Think upper middle class from the midwest who goes to the right schools and ends up in DC.

Calling equestrians the upper middle class is not accurate. They were firmly upper class, just the lower portion of the upper class. If the senatorial class was roughly the billionaires, then the equites were the ten and hundred millionaires. Perhaps not as rich as the very top of the upper class, but still a league above the upper middle class.

Re: Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

#26

Post by qwytw »

CalChris wrote: post #22
greenwich26 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cicero was a conservative in some ways. But I don't think he was particularly prejudiced or classist, for the time. Remember that he was technically a plebeian himself, although obviously a privileged and successful one.

Cicero's father was of the equestrian order, not patrician but definitely not plebeian. Think upper middle class from the midwest who goes to the right schools and ends up in DC.

Pompey, Crassus, Cicero, Gaius Marius, Mark Anthony even Octavian (before being adopted by Ceasar) were technically all Plebeian. By mid/late Republic the Plebeian/Patrician distinction had lost almost all meaning, as most Patrician families had died out or were surpassed in wealth and political influence by more successful Plebeian families.

The Equites were purely a social/wealth based class, any Roman citizen could become one if he we satisfied the wealth requirements.

Re: Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

#27

Post by qwytw »

philipov wrote: post #25
CalChris wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cicero's father was of the equestrian order, not patrician but definitely not plebeian. Think upper middle class from the midwest who goes to the right schools and ends up in DC.

Calling equestrians the upper middle class is not accurate. They were firmly upper class, just the lower portion of the upper class. If the senatorial class was roughly the billionaires, then the equites were the ten and hundred millionaires. Perhaps not as rich as the very top of the upper class, but still a league above the upper middle class.

Technically it was illegal for senators to engage in any commercial activity besides agriculture so they still had to really on the equites who directly exploited the natives in the provinces to give them their cut (tax collection was privatised in the republican period). So it's not unlikely that there were individual equites who were more wealthy than many Senators.

Re: Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

#28

Post by emptyfile »

edmundsauto wrote: post #16
philipov wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cicero wasn't murdered for any connection with the assassination of Caesar. He was murdered because Marc Anthony personally hated him for having denounced Anthony in a series of speeches known as the Philippics. When Octavian and Anthony were setting up the Second Triumvirate, Cicero's life was one of Anthony's demands.

Before we laud him as a saint, wasn't Cicero the guy who felt the plebian/patrician divide was just and right? My (poor) memory is that he was across the aisle from Caesar under the auspices of "no commoners" as well as "no dictators".

I like how just correcting a falsehood is in your eyes "lauding him as a saint". There are no saints in real life.

Re: Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

#29

Post by philipov »

qwytw wrote: post #27
philipov wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling equestrians the upper middle class is not accurate. They were firmly upper class, just the lower portion of the upper class. If the senatorial class was roughly the billionaires, then the equites were the ten and hundred millionaires. Perhaps not as rich as the very top of the upper class, but still a league above the upper middle class.

Technically it was illegal for senators to engage in any commercial activity besides agriculture so they still had to really on the equites who directly exploited the natives in the provinces to give them their cut (tax collection was privatised in the republican period). So it's not unlikely that there were individual equites who were more wealthy than many Senators.

That's fair, since senatores was a political class, not an economic class, and equites was technically the top economic class. I tried to simplify things to make the analogy possible, and I think the spirit of it is instructive even if the details could be more complicated.

The important point is that no one should mistake the equestrians for anything close to even the top end of the middle class.

Re: Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

#30

Post by hungryforcodes »

User23 wrote: post #6
SiVal wrote: post #3

This past weekend was to have been the annual vigil in the park in Hong Kong where thousands come out every year on June 4 in remembrance of what really happened in Tiananmen Square. This year, the park was empty. Not just a few, but empty. Those in power made statements in the Mainland "media", whose job is to persuade people to support those in power, about how misinformation needed to be eliminated and the terrori…

> Of course in the end Cicero was silenced by those who were taking power. The conflict between Cicero and Mark Antony is a splendid case study of influence versus power and how that conflict ends when power chooses to play its hand.

Mark Anthony may not have ultimately been successful (he was though), in which case Cicero may have lasted a bit longer. He was already 63 when he was executed, so it's not like he lived a short life for the age he lived in.
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