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Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

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Re: Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

#11

Post by gerdesj »

You know you are in the hands of a master when you read this:

In a loose, one is inclined to say a swinging, translation, Mr. Fontaine makes use of such words as “zingers,” “badmouthing,” “shtick” and “chutzpah.” (Bet you didn’t know the Romans knew Yiddish.) He also employs such contemporary phrases as “virtue-signaling,” “metrosexual” and “politically incorrect.” To enjoy his translation, one must smother the pedant in oneself and recall that there is no such thing as the perfect translation; only more or less inaccurate ones. I have myself long owed a debt of hearty laughter to a French translator who rendered “Englishmen always love an underdog” as “Les Anglais aiment toujours le ventre du chien,” or Englishmen love the belly of the dog.

Re: Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

#12

Post by gerdesj »

SiVal wrote: post #3

This past weekend was to have been the annual vigil in the park in Hong Kong where thousands come out every year on June 4 in remembrance of what really happened in Tiananmen Square. This year, the park was empty. Not just a few, but empty. Those in power made statements in the Mainland "media", whose job is to persuade people to support those in power, about how misinformation needed to be eliminated and the terrori…

"in remembrance of what really happened in Tiananmen Square."

That event is still remembered across the world. Recently the Register noted that "Tank man" vanished for a while from certain search engines but has made some re-appearances again. It may also surprise you to learn that "Cicero sic in omnibus, et Brutus aderat" (Big C puked in the bus and Brutus had a rat)

I understand where you are coming from and I think the notion of:

"power corrupts but absolute power corrupts absolutely"

is a very, very old notion.

Re: Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

#13

Post by xwolfi »

SiVal wrote: post #3

This past weekend was to have been the annual vigil in the park in Hong Kong where thousands come out every year on June 4 in remembrance of what really happened in Tiananmen Square. This year, the park was empty. Not just a few, but empty. Those in power made statements in the Mainland "media", whose job is to persuade people to support those in power, about how misinformation needed to be eliminated and the terrori…

But if June 4 for you is only about Victoria Park, then you're starting to enter religion.

What matters is we've discussed it all week in every newspaper, certainly a lot more than we would have done before. The crowds were around the park too, the police had to understand why this was necessary, etc. There s not one hong kong resident last Friday who didn't know what had happened on June 4, so maybe let the covid restrictions play out, and make sure we dont start talking more abt HK problems than tiananmen ?

Re: Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

#14

Post by stanrivers »

Cicero is an odd character to me - and I think I like him, because he is so very human. He is smart, witty, philosophical and could have had a long life, but vanity and a need to feel important caused him to make mistakes time and time again. He would even go against his own philosophies because of his need for status.

But, great thinker and tried his best despite failings. I kind of think that is a good role model - try to be better, know you are going to screw up, and keep on trying.

Also - he pokes young people in the eye in a book and I always thought it was funny in a philosophical way:

"And yet is there anyone so foolish, even though he is young, as to feel absolutely sure that he will be alive when evening comes? Nay, even youth, much more than old age, is subject to the accident of death; the young fall sick more easily, their sufferings are more intense, and they are cured with greater difficulty.

Therefore, few arrive at old age...

They say, also, that the old man has nothing even to hope for. Yet he is in better case than the young man, since what the latter merely hopes for, the former has already attained; the one wishes to live long, the other has lived long."

Source: https://newsletter.butwhatfor.com/p/takeaway-tuesday-on-old-...

Re: Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

#15

Post by lr4444lr »

philipov wrote: post #9
MR4D wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the end Cicero was silenced by those who were taking power. This is a spin on the fact that he was a participant in the murder of Caesar. Cicero was trying to take back power that had been lost to a very popular Leader by participating in the murder of said leader.[0] The killers and conspirators involved were all hunted down and killed. [0] - for those not up on Roman institutions, Dictator had a different role th…

Cicero wasn't murdered for any connection with the assassination of Caesar. He was murdered because Marc Anthony personally hated him for having denounced Anthony in a series of speeches known as the Philippics. When Octavian and Anthony were setting up the Second Triumvirate, Cicero's life was one of Anthony's demands.

He openly praised at least the main conspirator, Cassius, in his letters: http://attalus.org/translate/cassius.html#12.1

He loved the Roman Republic and it's senatorial grandeur, and hated Caesar for his illegal arrogation of power.

Re: Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

#16

Post by edmundsauto »

philipov wrote: post #9
MR4D wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the end Cicero was silenced by those who were taking power. This is a spin on the fact that he was a participant in the murder of Caesar. Cicero was trying to take back power that had been lost to a very popular Leader by participating in the murder of said leader.[0] The killers and conspirators involved were all hunted down and killed. [0] - for those not up on Roman institutions, Dictator had a different role th…

Cicero wasn't murdered for any connection with the assassination of Caesar. He was murdered because Marc Anthony personally hated him for having denounced Anthony in a series of speeches known as the Philippics. When Octavian and Anthony were setting up the Second Triumvirate, Cicero's life was one of Anthony's demands.

Before we laud him as a saint, wasn't Cicero the guy who felt the plebian/patrician divide was just and right? My (poor) memory is that he was across the aisle from Caesar under the auspices of "no commoners" as well as "no dictators".

Re: Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

#17

Post by [deleted] »

MR4D wrote: post #7
SiVal wrote: post #3

This past weekend was to have been the annual vigil in the park in Hong Kong where thousands come out every year on June 4 in remembrance of what really happened in Tiananmen Square. This year, the park was empty. Not just a few, but empty. Those in power made statements in the Mainland "media", whose job is to persuade people to support those in power, about how misinformation needed to be eliminated and the terrori…

> the end Cicero was silenced by those who were taking power. This is a spin on the fact that he was a participant in the murder of Caesar. Cicero was trying to take back power that had been lost to a very popular Leader by participating in the murder of said leader.[0] The killers and conspirators involved were all hunted down and killed. [0] - for those not up on Roman institutions, Dictator had a different role th…

[deleted]

Re: Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

#19

Post by ysavir »

edmundsauto wrote: post #16
philipov wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cicero wasn't murdered for any connection with the assassination of Caesar. He was murdered because Marc Anthony personally hated him for having denounced Anthony in a series of speeches known as the Philippics. When Octavian and Anthony were setting up the Second Triumvirate, Cicero's life was one of Anthony's demands.

Before we laud him as a saint, wasn't Cicero the guy who felt the plebian/patrician divide was just and right? My (poor) memory is that he was across the aisle from Caesar under the auspices of "no commoners" as well as "no dictators".

No one is lauding him as a saint. It's an objection to likening the murder of Cicero to censorship by the state.

Cicero was killed because Antony had a personal vendetta against Cicero. Antony's political partner, Octavian, had a good relationship with Cicero and even looked on him as a father figure. Giving him up to Antony was a compromise he was very unhappy to make (but Antony was not flexible on this demand).

Cicero, if anything, is an example of how one can be loud and open with their thoughts and actually get along well with political leaders (and he got on well with Caesar as well, supposedly). His murder is primarily indicative of Antony's pride.

Re: Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

#20

Post by greenwich26 »

edmundsauto wrote: post #16
philipov wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cicero wasn't murdered for any connection with the assassination of Caesar. He was murdered because Marc Anthony personally hated him for having denounced Anthony in a series of speeches known as the Philippics. When Octavian and Anthony were setting up the Second Triumvirate, Cicero's life was one of Anthony's demands.

Before we laud him as a saint, wasn't Cicero the guy who felt the plebian/patrician divide was just and right? My (poor) memory is that he was across the aisle from Caesar under the auspices of "no commoners" as well as "no dictators".

Cicero was a conservative in some ways. But I don't think he was particularly prejudiced or classist, for the time. Remember that he was technically a plebeian himself, although obviously a privileged and successful one.
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