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XKCD's Randall Munroe on Google+ requiring your gender to be public

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Re: XKCD's Randall Munroe on Google+ requiring your gender to be public

#31
post #9

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it correct to say that there are two genders , but not that there are two sexes ? Since gender is only a social construct, presumably the prevailing views of the society in question are what defines it?

This is a United-States-ian stance. In other countries, there are more than two genders.

There's more than two sexes, as well. It's ... complicated, to say the least.

Re: XKCD's Randall Munroe on Google+ requiring your gender to be public

#32
post #12

Guys, lets not get carried away by the issue here. The issue is NOT about gender identification. It is Google+ not providing the ability to hide your gender on your profile (I won't say they're FORCING you to post your gender). The issue of Gender Identification is merely an example provided to justify the usage of such a feature. So let's avoid a massive gender debate here, when you can read all about it in the post…

Right, and I don't think Randall's long-winded post really made that clear at all IMO.

Basically, the request is: don't make the Gender checkbox mandatory when signing up - or - I guess make it so I can completely hide my Gender.

Re: XKCD's Randall Munroe on Google+ requiring your gender to be public

#33

I don't get this trend at all. Something is wrong with priorities and perceived risk vs. real risk. It's pretty difficult to assault someone physically over the internet ( http://bash.org/?4281 ). On the other hand, woman broadcasts her gender when in public. Will x years from now we all be walking in some kind of uniform enclosures as to protect from anyone knowing if one is male or female? Also, in some languages n…

Counter-points:

* When you're a women on a forum/chat/irc/etc, you are pretty much guaranteed to get a deluge of messages/comments/etc from guys, especially socially awkward guys that would never think of attempting such a thing in person.

* You're missing out on this: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/

* It's easy for people to develop obsessions at a distance that are based on no actual reality before ever meeting someone in person. See celebrity stalkers for examples. Most of these cases are people that have never actually met the celebrity in question, but are in full out crazy mode by the time that they enter physical proximity to the celebrity.

* There's a difference between inferring gender, and broadcasting it. From the article this is portrayed as the difference between saying, "Hi, I'm Randall," and "Hi, I'm Randall and I'm a man." While both of these statements may seem logically equivalent (since you could deduce gender from the name), they are not equivalent in human interactions.

Re: XKCD's Randall Munroe on Google+ requiring your gender to be public

#34

I don't get this trend at all. Something is wrong with priorities and perceived risk vs. real risk. It's pretty difficult to assault someone physically over the internet ( http://bash.org/?4281 ). On the other hand, woman broadcasts her gender when in public. Will x years from now we all be walking in some kind of uniform enclosures as to protect from anyone knowing if one is male or female? Also, in some languages n…

It has nothing to do with assault over the internet and everything to do with the way others perceive you. I would love to imagine I live in a world where it doesn't matter what chromosomes and sex organs you were born with, and really, I have kind of found that in the Cocoa developer community. That is why I enjoy talking to those people.

But just /join an IRC channel with a female nickname. Play online games and talk with a female voice. Someone somewhere is going to make some kind of fuss over it and it is incredibly annoying. I like to do things like raid in WoW...and most raids want people to join ventrilo/mumble voice chat. I never talk unless a friend is in there with me or unless I hear another female voice. Period. I do not want to hear "IT'S A GIRL (or prepubescent boy)!! /whisper Can I see your tits?".

So I may not care about hiding my gender on my google+ profile because it's mostly just a bunch of people that know me already some other way in circles, but there are definitely places where even my thick skinned attitude towards "tits or gtfo" can't help and I don't want anyone to know what I might be. I understand some people may think that about google+ and fully respect and support their desire for such a feature.

I can't say I know the best way to deal with this problem, but I don't think it has as much to do with ignoring differences as much as it is not infusing our own gender biases into the way children think and learn about how to interact with each other. In a way, ambiguity can foster a sense of respect (or at least, caution).

There is no other reason for me to be running around with gender ambiguous usernames on websites, IRC, chat, and more where I am interacting with people I don't know.

Re: XKCD's Randall Munroe on Google+ requiring your gender to be public

#35

I don't get this trend at all. Something is wrong with priorities and perceived risk vs. real risk. It's pretty difficult to assault someone physically over the internet ( http://bash.org/?4281 ). On the other hand, woman broadcasts her gender when in public. Will x years from now we all be walking in some kind of uniform enclosures as to protect from anyone knowing if one is male or female? Also, in some languages n…

It's not a "trend". We came out of the cave and realized that gender is not a simple binary. Or are you under the impression that it is?

Re: XKCD's Randall Munroe on Google+ requiring your gender to be public

#36
I've always found Munroe's position on gender equality weird - despite what he says, he 'others' women in his main work. Female stick figures have long hair, even if the strip has nothing to do with gender. Male stick figures have no such indication. That is: 'male' is 'default'.

Re: XKCD's Randall Munroe on Google+ requiring your gender to be public

#38

I don't get this trend at all. Something is wrong with priorities and perceived risk vs. real risk. It's pretty difficult to assault someone physically over the internet ( http://bash.org/?4281 ). On the other hand, woman broadcasts her gender when in public. Will x years from now we all be walking in some kind of uniform enclosures as to protect from anyone knowing if one is male or female? Also, in some languages n…

  > I don't get this trend at all. Something is wrong with
  > priorities and perceived risk vs. real risk. It's pretty
  > difficult to assault someone physically over the internet
  > (http://bash.org/?4281). On the other hand, woman
  > broadcasts her gender when in public. Will x years from
  > now we all be walking in some kind of uniform enclosures
  > as to protect from anyone knowing if one is male or female?
It's not that easy... Are you for instance aware that many would argue there are more than two genders? And they may use not only social but also biological arguments?

Also supposedly we as humans use technology to improve our quality of life and to sometimes tame what we don't like about the current rules nature has us living in. Why shouldn't we build technology so that one can chose to not broadcast gender information? I mean, it's not as difficult as the uniform enclosures, and for example we do build dams should someone believe changing the course of a river is for the good of a bunch of people.

To answer to your own analogy with one of my own, if we could make an Android app that makes everybody on the street ignore our gender when interacting with us publicly, would it be wrong to use it if I wanted to?

  > Also, in some languages name is very clear indication of
  > the gender. And even some ambiguous nickname won't help,
  > because in some languages you usage of verbs, adjectives
  > etc. differs depending on gender.
Modern language is also somewhat a technological creation, we do study and shape language in a daily basis... and yes, it's currently sexist. That doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss and act in ways between our reach to make our social networks less sexist.

  > Recently I saw a story about some kindergarden in Sweden
  > where kids were not allowed to say "he" or "she" when 
  > talking about person but rather had to use something 
  > equivalent to "it" (I don't think English has equivalent 
  > to that, Russian language has "оно" for neuter nouns). To
  > me it looks extremely stupid. But I guess it is easier just 
  > to ignore our differences than teach to cherish them and
  > respect the other side.
One could discuss for years about to what extent those differences and sides are themselves social constructs that are today imprinted on our language... but I myself believe it would be difficult to any of us to sum it up as cleanly and insightfully as Hofstadter has already done in http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html (which reading I recommend, and has already been discussed here http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1421022)

Re: XKCD's Randall Munroe on Google+ requiring your gender to be public

#40
post #15

This seems like a really pointlessly long rant that boils down to a feature request: Change the "other" category to "other/not-disclosed". Also do these women who don't want to disclose their gender really need Randall Munroe to file the bug report for them?

The feature request is to add the ability to hide your gender, not to institutionalise co-opting of "other" as "not disclosed".

I bet the post was read by a lot more people because it was written by Randall Munroe.

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