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The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

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Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#891

Post by gentleman11 »

bartart wrote: post #2

This is the most shocking article I have ever read in my life. I'd ask everyone to please read it because it is incredible. One thing I did not realize is that US researchers who conducted gain of function research tried to downplay and discredit the possibility of the virus originating from the wuhan lab. There was an anti-lab theory Lancet statement signed by scientists, and "Daszak had not only signed but organize…

I’m not sure the writing style promotes objectivity. It doesn’t explore certain threads enough to feel like you are reading a trustworthy and complete briefing on the story

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#892

Post by boringg »

The most shocking thing about this is actually the comment thread on Hackernews and the level of conspiracy that exists here under guise of uncovering facts.

I've read lots of comments on how major media organizations are hiding information or not covering stories to push a narrative. That the US media landscape is like China State TV. That Fauci must have been involved at a conspiratorial level. It's legit bananas and deeply concerning.

I always assume HN commentters broadly havev a scientific mindset (anything is possible - though many are unlikely, fact based, empirical evidence, probabilities) as I equated programming/computer engineering similar to scientific thinking.

However I realize through experience that many people here like to think they have a scientific thought process and in fact don't and truly harbor intense conspiracies.

There is a chance that the commenters are actually not that representative of the broader population and this story brings out the biases of people who have a conspiratorial Fauci angle.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#893

Post by bmitc »

macspoofing wrote: post #869
bmitc wrote: post #837

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all honesty, why would they be? Without them addressing anything, the west, particularly the U.S., has had their pitchforks out and ready since day one. With our idiotic president calling it the Chinese virus from the start, why in the hell would China want to be upfront about what they knew about the origin if it indeed was a lab leak? I wouldn’t. That’s all on the assumption that they themselves even knew or kno…

>In all honesty, why would they be? What kind of an insane statement is that? Because that's the right thing to do when it comes to something like a GLOBAL pandemic. >Without them addressing anything, the west, particularly the U.S., has had their pitchforks out and ready since day one. Is that a rationalization for not being forthright about the pandemic and origins of the virus (regardless if it was accidentally fr…

To be frank, your responses show a naive understanding of how the world works and human behavior. Also, your responses imply I said things I didn't.

My comment is simply an observation of the way things are, not the way I would want them to be.

> Fault the west for many things, but these kinds of things tend to have full transparency around them.

If you believe that, then I don't know what to say.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#894

Post by whydoibother »

pfisch wrote: post #51
harryf wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gets worse - gain of function research was banned under Obama until the ban was lifted in 2017 under Trump - https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... I can’t find sources for this right now but apparently Dr Anthony Fauci played a key role in getting the ban lifted. He’s also the head of the NIAID ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Fauci ) which (apparently) is the ultimate source for…

So it sounds like Fauci is saying they didn't fund gain of function research in the Wuhan lab. If they did doesn't that really mean Trump is either more responsible for Covid or equally as responsible as China? Trump allowed the ban to be lifted after the Obama whitehouse explicitly shut down this kind of research. Fauci just worked for Trump. It was ultimately on Trump, not an employee of his.

No no, you see, responsibility goes to the top, unless it lands on your tribe. Then it only goes to the nearest opposing tribe.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#895

Post by xster »

pjc50 wrote: post #738
mc32 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other astonishing things is the sudden about face by the media. I'm glad they allowed themselves the liberty of looking at alternative origins. But... they were SO adamant and complicit in any discussion about alternative theories being shut down under the guise of conspiracy, Trumpism, anti-China, etc. (These are the same people who have no qualms about attributing anything to Russia even if evidence is thin, so…

This is the Iraq war situation all over again, by which I mean the same people (literally) are pushing the same angle through the same media outlets in the same way. https://www.wsj.com/articles/intelligence-on-sick-staff-at-w... : Michael R. Gordon, WSJ on the "lab leak" https://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/08/world/threats-responses-i... : Michael R. Gordon, NYT on "Iraq WMD" The media are, in these cases, bad, but only…

I'm not sure they're meant to "defend" themselves against US psyops

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/apr/12/julianborger: CNN [and NPR] let army staff into newsroom

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#896

Post by iab »

myfavoritedog wrote: post #749
Throwawayaerlei wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's been highlighted of the FOIA released emails so far suggests he didn't know if his NIAID was funding Wuhan Institute of Virology SARS type coronavirus gain of function experiments, but he was quite concerned that might be the case. Look for the one where he tells someone to keep his cell phone on. It's something he'd likely be concerned about, because he's been a big booster of gain of function research, and t…

The email trail is damning. Fauci knew that the possibility was there. Instead of pushing for discovery and transparency of what actually happened, he publicly and vehemently denied the possibility and gave fuel to those who wanted to call the "lab leak theory" people "conspiracy nuts". Fauci's elevation to sainthood was way too premature. His constant media appearances where he hasn't been questioned on any of this…

This is an issue for sure. The core reason though, IMO, was the contrast - for example, you have the president calling for injecting bleach, publicly. Any reasonable person is going to drift away from that, and towards someone who seems more reasonable, and thoughtful. Now that there is less extreme rhetoric, the seams in this particular leadership are starting to show. Can't say the same for Michael Avenatti, who seemed unhinged from the beginning although again just my opinion.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#897

Post by gentleman11 »

isolli wrote: post #611
bglazer wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm quite astounded and confused at the sudden shift in discourse towards assuming that the lab leak theory must be true. It's not so much the theory itself that's surprising. Lab leak remains plausible but less probable then natural origins. The sudden shift is just baffling to me though. This huge new furor is due to anonymous CIA sources saying three people got sick? That's extremely tenuous evidence, as you state…

You're misreading the context. The furor comes from the fact that the lab leak hypothesis (distinct from the engineered virus hypothesis) was dismissed by fact checkers as a debunked conspiracy theory for a year based on nothing but assurances from the few scientists they interviewed. This is just one example I could find quickly, but there are many more... https://twitter.com/JoePCunningham/status/139718591836522496…

Twitter makes very poor references for fact checks

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#898

Post by tripletao »

stef25 wrote: post #662
yumraj wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did any of them originate a few miles from a pathogen research lab that handled such pathogen that caused those outbreaks?

Labs may be built in areas relevant to their research.

They may be, but the WIV wasn't. In the words of Dr. Shi herself:

> We have done bat virus surveillance in Hubei Province for many years, but have not found that bats in Wuhan or even the wider Hubei Province carry any coronaviruses that are closely related to SARS-CoV-2. I don't think the spillover from bats to humans occurred in Wuhan or in Hubei Province.

https://www.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/Shi%20Zhengli...

The closest animal virus to SARS-CoV-2 was found in nature about 900 miles from Wuhan (RaTG13, in Mojiang), closer to Chongqing, Chengdu, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, or HK.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#899

Post by [deleted] »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #862
himinlomax wrote: post #792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the priors. There's one lab of that type doing that kind of work in China. What is the likelihood that an epidemic emerging in China next to that one lab while not being from the lab? Also lab leaks are a type of industrial accident. Industrial accidents happen even in the places with the most stringent security protocols. Were that lab's protocols the best in the world? Can't say. And those that are best in…

>Consider the priors. There have been two serious epidemics of coronavirus disease in recent history: SARS and MERS. There is overwhelming evidence that both have a natural origin. Indeed, the fear of further crossover events is precisely why there was a lab studying these viruses in Wuhan. I'm not saying that this wasn't a lab accident. What I'm saying that is that if you were actually "considering the priors" (in t…

[deleted]

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#900

Post by quickthrowman »

macspoofing wrote: post #814
jcrawfordor wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would Fauci have even known? Budget numbers say NIAID clears around $5 billion in grant funding per year and this grant was more at the $100k per year level. Another source shows that NIAID receives around 3,000 grant applications per year and that's just in two of their multiple grant types. It seems most likely to me that the grant was approved and funded by a subject-area committee without Fauci being involved at…

>Would Fauci have even known? So maybe he finds out before making statements? I've lost faith in Fauci when he admitted he lied about the efficacy of masks early on in the pandemic. He literally came out and stated he lied in order to make sure frontline healthcare workers had enough PPE. That was the most insane statement I've ever heard a public health leader make - lying about healthcare to the public that may res…

> What's sad is that the population would understand if you just told them the truth, namely that masks help, but our frontline works desperately need them so getting them masks and PPE is a priority.

Maybe elsewhere, but not in America. This is one of the most selfish/individualist countries on earth.

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