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Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

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Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#571

Post by cheschire »

decodebytes wrote: post #564
rubicon33 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what most of the newcomers to WFH don't understand: There is a big different between WFH for a few months where EVERYONE else is also WFH ... and WFH for YEARS where some, or most, of the others are in office. The latter is years upon years of feeling disconnected, left out, and sidelined. The vast majority of companies even if they allow remote are not remote first. Remote first involves actual structural an…

> Lastly, WFH for years can result in a serious mental health decline. If you think you're doing fine after 1 year, come see me after 5. You'll realize by the end of it just how important water cooler conversation is for your BRAIN. You'll recognize just how bad it can be to see (as a function of your time alive) MOSTLY just your home. It does a number on you. This is just down to nothing more then poor discipline an…

I think some folks with crippling social anxiety might have a bone to pick with this assertion.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#572

Post by jorvi »

Nbox9 wrote: post #51

I work for another company that is going to do a partial return to office. I will be looking at options for companies that offer full in person office (or 90% in person office) after things settle down. I have worked full remote for a total of 5 years of my career, and I believe working in the office is a competitive advantage. * Overhearing hallway conversations (and joining them) helps spawn invocation. * I often d…

> * Having a workforce socially close improves productivity because everyone wants to step up for each other.

I can agree with all your other points, but this one simply stuck out to me. Haven't nearly all companies realized more productivity with WFH?

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#573

Post by dougmwne »

Elora wrote: post #319

Some here are being honest, so I'll be brutally honest: Covid has upset the master-slave relationship, and they're realizing they're giving up too much control. Yes, even the supposedly forward-thinking, progressive tech world. It's so much easier to ignore the BS of "company culture," "a new family" and other such nonsense when working remote. Plenty of people here have outright stated they work as a way to fund the…

Bingo. People who lead companies are not wired like the rest of us. It's not some bullshit about mission or impact. Executives are there for power. Power is the sweat under a subordinate's arms when you address them. Power is having control over the bodies of others when you tell them where to be, how long to be there, where to sit and how to dress. Power is having roomfuls of people in rapt attention to you. Power is giving orders and making decisions, then watching them be physically carried out. Power is getting sex from your subordinates. Power is seeing the people who have subordinated themselves to you and their daily performance of that subordination.

Even if moon robots could do all our work for us, some people would find a way to make the rest of us submit. Nothing can replace physical proximity. Without it, you feel like a loser in your bathrobe instead of master of your universe.

Don't believe the bullshit about WFH and automation fueled idle. It's counter to human nature. We organize our workplaces, education system and society not for maximum efficiency but to satisfy the primate hierarchical social instinct.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#574

Post by vladvasiliu »

decodebytes wrote: post #561
Nbox9 wrote: post #51

I work for another company that is going to do a partial return to office. I will be looking at options for companies that offer full in person office (or 90% in person office) after things settle down. I have worked full remote for a total of 5 years of my career, and I believe working in the office is a competitive advantage. * Overhearing hallway conversations (and joining them) helps spawn invocation. * I often d…

I feel directly opposite to this, I am way more productive working from home as a programmer, for this reason alone: https://heeris.id.au/2013/this-is-why-you-shouldnt-interrupt... Also I find modern tools easily make up for not being in close proximity. Best of all as an engineering lead, I am not restricted to hiring in the small pool of engineers who can travel to the physical location of an office. I can hire tal…

> > I had a stronger work/life separation. I rarely turned on my work laptop at home.

> To be fair, that's a personal disciple issue.

That's true, and in my case I have absolutely no issue with not working at random hours, even though I use the same exact computer for both work and personal projects. I work from 8 AM to 6 PM, with a break from 12 to 2. Absent an emergency, at 6:01 I'm done for the day and unreachable.

But in other domains, I've found that having to enforce this discipline can take an emotional / energy toll. In my case, I have this issue with food. I've found that if I have snacks and / or other easy to eat, calorie-laden food around the house I will absolutely have a terrible time trying to control myself and not eat them all. Even though I'm not actually hungry, I keep thinking about them and keep feeling like I need to eat them. This absolutely has an effect on my ability to focus, and the only way to have that go away is to eat. I'm not a smoker, but I suppose it's a similar kind of itch.

But by not buying them at all and not having them in the house, it's much, much easier for me. I don't actually miss them when I don't have them and never think about them. Every once in a while I may think about having an ice-cream or something, but I don't crave it to the point of going to the store and buying it (even though the round trip is like 10 minutes, and I'm a fairly active person). Just eating an apple or whatever makes the craving go away. But if the ice cream was there, 9/10 times I would have eaten that instead of the apple. And "just a scoop" is never just a scoop.

So I completely sympathize with people who've found that having this clear separation between work and home makes a difference for them. Having to catch a train / avoid sitting in a car during a commute / picking up the kids from school / whatever can really put an end to the possible tendency of "just five more minutes, and I'm done".

But there's also the fact, as others have said, that there are other ways to not work from home than going to an office. While I love working from my own house, what I hate the most with the office is the commute, and it's not even that bad by local standards. But advocating for a remote culture would allow people to combine these advantages (having both a separation and no / short commute). Of course, the social aspect of the office some people talk about wouldn't be completely solved.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#575

Post by freyr »

panopticon wrote: post #294
swiley wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

45 minutes means an hour and a half of your life every day that you don't get paid for and have to just throw away. (not only that but spending it doing one of the more dangerous things you can do in the US: driving.) That combined with the ridiculous housing costs in the bay area makes me wonder why anyone (especially more numerate people) would tolerate not working remotely.

> makes me wonder why anyone (especially more numerate people) would tolerate not working remotely Honest question: are there a substantial number of remote companies paying bay area FAANG salaries? You put in any decent time at these places and your total comp is at least $300-500k/yr. You'd have to move somewhere really cheap for the math to work out in favor of that remote gig if you're leaving $100-300k on the ta…

Can you get a nice house in a good neighborhood near the office on $300k/year in the Bay Area these days? A lot of people in the Bay Area make a lot less.

There are just so many markets in the US where you’ll find a much nicer house in a better neighborhood for a fraction of the cost. If you already own a house in the Bay Area, you’re set. But otherwise, the paycheck begins to look a bit like an illusion.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#577

Post by decodebytes »

cheschire wrote: post #571
decodebytes wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lastly, WFH for years can result in a serious mental health decline. If you think you're doing fine after 1 year, come see me after 5. You'll realize by the end of it just how important water cooler conversation is for your BRAIN. You'll recognize just how bad it can be to see (as a function of your time alive) MOSTLY just your home. It does a number on you. This is just down to nothing more then poor discipline an…

I think some folks with crippling social anxiety might have a bone to pick with this assertion.

Surely if they have crippling social anxiety, being stuck in an office all day with others where they are expected to socialise no matter how bad their anxiety might be playing up on any given day, is far worse?

Also the only social part I referenced was coffee with close friends. I think drinking a coffee with an understanding friend(s) is much easier then being around 20+ colleagues for 8 hours straight.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#578

Post by dougmwne »

luffapi wrote: post #41

There’s something hyper draconian about a billionaire CEO demanding everyone return to the office so he can see their faces. Apple execs have enriched themselves by capturing way more profit than regular employees (Apple engineering pay is average/low average). This is overstepping. Not only will any company that insists on a return to the office lose employees, they’re also loudly signaling their disdain and it’s go…

There is absolutely nothing surprising about this. The king wants his subjects to assemble.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#579

Post by adflux »

winrid wrote: post #550
matt-attack wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s because diversity and inclusion pretty much means “blacks” and “women” fullstop. I was recently hiring a developer and my massive media company insisted I ensure my recruiter is giving me diverse candidates. I selected an individual who is apparently Spanish Jewish. Some very rare tribe of Jews from Spain. Was that considered diverse? Nope. Needs to be black.

I actually had a manager at a company openly say they were having trouble finding an intern as they only wanted a minority. I ended up waiting for months. I am very happy I got out of that place...

How is it that some people are so careful about being diverse that they end up being incredibly racist, and yet not notice it ?!

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#580

Post by randomsearch »

midasuni wrote: post #568
deanCommie wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to commute. You chose to commute. You maybe did it for a larger house. Or maybe for cheaper rent/mortgage. We're not talking here about folks on minimum wage who can only afford to live 2 hours outside of the city they are working in. The highly paid software engineers on hackernews could absolutely afford to live 5 minutes from the office, 30 minutes from the office, or 2 hours from the office. They c…

You work at offie A, your spouse works at office B. There’s 20 miles between them. How do you avoid the commute?

Well, for one thing only _one_ of you needs to commute.

Secondly, you can work towards a situation where you don't have that commute, or it's cheap / clean / easy / you don't lose all the time. Spoiler: live on a trainline or buy a bicycle.

Third, I don't believe this is the main reason for commuting. I think it's because people want to live in one place and work in another, which is usually a bad idea - especially for the environment. It irks me when I choose to live reasonably close to work so I don't need to burn fossil fuels to get there, and then people driving their cars to and from some village complain about their commute whilst I have to suffer the air pollution from their vehicles.

I totally get that for some transitional periods a long commute may be required, but I don't know a single person who couldn't make their commute a 20min walk or by public transport if they moved or switched jobs.

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