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NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

bbc.com

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Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#171

Post by niksakl »

hindsightbias wrote: post #137
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually it was going reasonably well for 2 or 3 centuries, the mass spying is a recent development. Thus the correct question to ask is "why/how did we break the system that used to work"

People who develop hardware and software made it possible.

I believe it is not about the means and the tooling. Systemic problems need to fix the system, not various outcomes of such problems. Assuming we are talking about democracies, I guess it is up to the people. If the people do not care, then fine. "Nothing to see here, move along". If this is the case, I disagree with "the people", but apparently that is just me... Or few of us.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#172

Post by niksakl »

bigbillheck wrote: post #150
Qwertious wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/guberno#Latin According to Wiktionary, it seems to come from steering a ship.

Has to be the same root as 'cybernetic'.

...which has the root of the Greek verb "κυβερνώ", which means "to govern", and is also the root of Kubernetes, which means "governor/captain" :)

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#173

Post by shakow »

PoignardAzur wrote: post #169
shakow wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> France is one of the most aggressive state-sponsors of industrial espionage, after China and the US. That's the kind of thing you can't just write out of nowhere without any reference.

I admit that's something I said without thorough research. It's just something that pops up in discussions about industrial espionage, or about the DGSE, or about the french military-industrial complex. A quick search gives me this article as evidence: https://www.france24.com/en/20110104-france-industrial-espio... But I admit I don't have strong reference to back my statement up.

So Germany was being spied on while developing a system to spy on others, preferring to introduce a US Trojan horse in the EU through it rather than develop it in the European structure because it is French-dominated...

Looks like everyone is dirty as hell in this one.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#174

Post by Cybotron5000 »

Cybotron5000 wrote: post #167
Telemakhos wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Greek concept of democracy looked nothing like the modern republic. A Greek democracy did not elect legislators: that function belonged to the people assembled as a whole. Nor did it elect ordinary magistrates, who were instead selected by random lot from lists of willing volunteers in a process now called "sortition." The rationale behind sortition relied on the notion that the ordinary business of government wa…

As you suggest, ancient Athenian democracy bore little resemblance to modern forms of representative democracy and no doubt appears very limited/odd to modern sensibilities. What you wrote doesn’t make what I stated about the derivation of the word any less true though: https://www.etymonline.com/word/democracy All forms of democracy so far have been hefty compromises in one way or another and so will all be in the f…

Podcast on the subject: Democracy http://share-episode.podcasts.coderocker.de?t=Democracy&el=h...

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#175

Post by Dahoon »

throw0101a wrote: post #119
Daho0n wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most of Europe has effectively outsourced its military defence to the Americans That is a very American point of view. Many Europeans see it more as "The US pay a bigger part than we do in bolstering American control of the western world", which is exactly as it should be. IMO the US should pay exactly 100% of the bill for its own defense and enforcement of its power projection. The US does this to protect the US, n…

> Many Europeans see it more as "The US pay a bigger part than we do in bolstering American control of the western world", which is exactly as it should be. IMO the US should pay exactly 100% of the bill for its own defense and enforcement of its power projection. You're not wrong, but NATO members have also agreed to spend 2% of their GDP on defence. Which few do. > In 2006, NATO Defence Ministers agreed to commit a…

Yeah but it might be because jumping ("how high?") even when not officially asked to jump might be the only safe thing to do. After all history -both recent and further back- tells us that with the US "You are either with us or against us". I don't think you can safely say no to the 2% and not be put in a box with Russia, China, etc.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#176

Post by Cybotron5000 »

Cybotron5000 wrote: post #174
Cybotron5000 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you suggest, ancient Athenian democracy bore little resemblance to modern forms of representative democracy and no doubt appears very limited/odd to modern sensibilities. What you wrote doesn’t make what I stated about the derivation of the word any less true though: https://www.etymonline.com/word/democracy All forms of democracy so far have been hefty compromises in one way or another and so will all be in the f…

Podcast on the subject: Democracy http://share-episode.podcasts.coderocker.de?t=Democracy&el=h...

…and another: Wynton Marsalis on democracy as jazz and The Ever Fonky Lowdown http://share-episode.podcasts.coderocker.de?t=Wynton Marsalis on democracy as jazz and The Ever Fonky Lowdown&el=https://chtbl.com/track/DE4279/cdn.simplecast.com/audio/942a...

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#177

Post by gccs »

KMag wrote: post #155
gccs wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The math behind encryption cannot be broken. But the implementations can. When you have so many math PhDs attacking crypto implementations, you are bound to find a bug you can exploit. Look how long heartbleed was around.

That's an argument for auditing existing systems, not having Europe finance development of brand new systems to encrypt communications.

New systems bring new implementations ready to be broken.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#178

Post by nix23 »

ostenning wrote: post #149
nix23 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US is outside and can spy whatever they want, Denmark on the other way is "in theory" part of the European-Family, if a "friend" sells you out to someone else, who is the traitor?

Both

The US is not a friend of the Europe...a bit reality would be healthy for you.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#179

Post by ineedasername »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #90
quyleanh wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny. How do you define what is good and what is bad? Are you sure American guys only torture the bad guys?

>How do you define what is good and what is bad? Simple. If the US tortured/drone striked them, they are bad.

That has to be the worst most intellectually vacuous justification I can imagine. Barring the possibility that it is sarcasm or satire, in which case I apologize and note the difficulty of of discerning that tone online.

If not though, this is the most facile definition of good and bad imaginable, echoing back to the history of might makes right and what I want is good and all who appose me are bad.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#180

Post by boomboomsubban »

ineedasername wrote: post #179
boomboomsubban wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How do you define what is good and what is bad? Simple. If the US tortured/drone striked them, they are bad.

That has to be the worst most intellectually vacuous justification I can imagine. Barring the possibility that it is sarcasm or satire, in which case I apologize and note the difficulty of of discerning that tone online. If not though, this is the most facile definition of good and bad imaginable, echoing back to the history of might makes right and what I want is good and all who appose me are bad.

If you found this post by reading the related thread, the sarcasm is fairly obvious.
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