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Pesticides are killing the world's soils

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#131

Post by smhost »

mikehotel wrote: post #114
smhost wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

insect populations are declining rapidly and are also in need of protection. we're probably going to have to start eating bugs for survival when all the animals are dead, since bugs are one of the most efficient sources of protein, so i'd personally be wary of telling the bugs to fuck off just so we can save the crops.

If insect populations are dwindling and in need of protection, why would we suggest people eat them? Wouldn’t that accelerate their demise? Also, most folks are not protein deficient, but they are not getting enough fiber. https://www.vox.com/2019/3/20/18214505/fiber-diet-weight-los...

i didn't say that we should eat bugs because insect populations are declining. i said we are going to have to start eating bugs anyway (e.g. there are no more wild fish), and also that insect populations are declining.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#132

Post by mellavora »

rmason wrote: post #49
selcuka wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We were able to genetically modify plants so they generated natural pesticides as a defense against insects. Isn't this the good old "naturalistic fallacy" though? Would you eat a poisonous mushroom because the poison is "natural"? You can at least wash some pesticides off. I'm not a biologist but I'm sure there is a difference between crossing different varieties of peas versus introducing a non-pea (or maybe non-…

Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt) is a naturally occurring bacterium in the soil that produces proteins specifically active against certain insects. This is the exact same insecticide used by certified organic growers. Plant breeders have just engineered the plants to produce it in their leaves, not in the corn itself. For thirty years objections have been raised, scientific research has been done disproving the objections…

Sorry, no. Even Monsanto's own research confirms that large-scale use of Bt-corn will destroy organic farming.

When a pesticide is widespread, insects develop resistance. At the moment, few insects have resistance to BT, because it is not continually in the environment in sufficiently high numbers.

So it works as an organic insecticide when needed.

Genetically engineer it into large numbers of plants, and in 30-40 years it is no longer effective.

Which means organic farmer no longer have the option of using it.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#133

Post by rosetremiere »

brainzap wrote: post #80
rosetremiere wrote: post #44

In Switzerland, we're soon going to vote on two initiatives ¹² aiming at reducing pesticide use. The first is essentially about forbidding the use of all artificial pesticides by 2031 (also importation of food that was produced abroad using pesticides). The second is about removing subsidies to farmers that use any kind of pesticide, or regularly use antibiotics on their livestock, etc. I feel like they are quite dra…

The initiative includes that farmers have to produce the fodder themself. wtf?

I'm honestly happy with this part: I'm all for reducing livestock use as much as possible, and the fodder restriction is a nice way to push for this by giving a natural constraint: can't have more livestock than you can feed "by yourself".

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#134

Post by danybittel »

rosetremiere wrote: post #119
andrei_says_ wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could say that the initiative to subsidize farmers who use highly toxic chemicals and unsustainable practices resulting in depletion and eventual destruction of soil is also drastic. As in paying money to destroy the soil and help someone profit a bit extra in the process is maybe not the best investment of people’s taxes. Of course, it took us some time to start paying attention to the externalities. But now tha…

To clarify, I believe the goals are laudable, and the "drastic" adjective was the best approximation I had. My first guess would be to vote 2× yes, but I have some reservations: * I heard that even among organic farmers, it was not a clear 2× yes. * There is the question of efficiency of organic/no pesticide farming: are we going to have a really bad output and something less ecological in the end due to more work fo…

Your reservations are similar to mine. I still voted yes, I think we need a clear signal, that we want an exit strategy and what is being done is not enough. Even if both pass, I highly doubt they will be put into effect 1:1 (just look at the migration initiative). If they do not pass, it would be sad if only like 1/4 or less voted yes.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#135

Post by hinkley »

Clewza313 wrote: post #58
hinkley wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think plants that produce pesticides are not an environmental problem of their own? Bees are dying from neonics getting into the pollen. You willing to bet the biosphere that you’re right, and nothing bad will happen?

Surely it's better to replace indiscriminate spraying of substances known to be harmful with GMO crops carefully bred to have the smallest changes possible?

Genes do not stay put.

Genes do not know how to stay put. Their whole purpose is to spread. The difference between weed and crop is very narrow in many cases. Brassicas especially. Any gene you put into them you’re going to deal with in a weed very soon.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#136

Post by mpaal »

rosetremiere wrote: post #44

In Switzerland, we're soon going to vote on two initiatives ¹² aiming at reducing pesticide use. The first is essentially about forbidding the use of all artificial pesticides by 2031 (also importation of food that was produced abroad using pesticides). The second is about removing subsidies to farmers that use any kind of pesticide, or regularly use antibiotics on their livestock, etc. I feel like they are quite dra…

What is the sentiment about this vote within you and your group of friends/family? As I pass by Swiss countryside I see a lot of farmers claiming they will vote 2xNO as it presumably kills their business but I have a hard time believing that. Is there a swiss website where I can see current general sentiment regarding this initiatives?

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#137

Post by Apanatshka »

BelenusMordred wrote: post #70
rosetremiere wrote: post #44

In Switzerland, we're soon going to vote on two initiatives ¹² aiming at reducing pesticide use. The first is essentially about forbidding the use of all artificial pesticides by 2031 (also importation of food that was produced abroad using pesticides). The second is about removing subsidies to farmers that use any kind of pesticide, or regularly use antibiotics on their livestock, etc. I feel like they are quite dra…

> I feel like they are quite drastic initiatives To me the greatest thing about Switzerland's direct democracy is that society gets the opportunity to make mistakes and learn from them with a very quick turnaround. If it really is a bad thing or has unintended consequences, the people will revert it back soon enough. I doubt that is the case, but time will tell. The problem with modern 2-party systems in the West is…

An important and sometimes forgotten thing about democracy is that it isn't as simple as the majority rules. It's the majority rules while taking minorities into account. In a well functioning representational democracy this is kept in mind my career politicians. In a hybrid between representational and direct like in Switzerland, the population can overrule and just go with majority rule.

For example, the Swiss pension system is similar to others in Europe, where the current working population pay taxes almost directly towards pensions of the retired. Since this system will break down if taxes aren't increased like crazy or pensions lowered, politicians have been trying to change the system. But there are too many people soon to be retired or already retired that care less about their country's youth and future than their own pension, so they keep blocking changes. So every democratic system has its tradeoffs...

I learned this from a young Swiss when I was visiting Switzerland and praising their way of democracy. It was a few years ago though, so maybe this info is no longer accurate. And I didn't fact check, it was just an example brought up in casual conversation.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#138

Post by tobltobs »

brainzap wrote: post #80
rosetremiere wrote: post #44

In Switzerland, we're soon going to vote on two initiatives ¹² aiming at reducing pesticide use. The first is essentially about forbidding the use of all artificial pesticides by 2031 (also importation of food that was produced abroad using pesticides). The second is about removing subsidies to farmers that use any kind of pesticide, or regularly use antibiotics on their livestock, etc. I feel like they are quite dra…

The initiative includes that farmers have to produce the fodder themself. wtf?

I guess the idea is to minimize the amount of slurry per square meter.

"Nitrate exceeds the limit value of 25 mg/l in groundwater at almost 15 % of the monitoring sites across Switzerland. In areas where arable farming is predominant, concentrations are above the limit at more than 40% of the monitoring sites."

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#139

Post by rosetremiere »

mpaal wrote: post #136
rosetremiere wrote: post #44

In Switzerland, we're soon going to vote on two initiatives ¹² aiming at reducing pesticide use. The first is essentially about forbidding the use of all artificial pesticides by 2031 (also importation of food that was produced abroad using pesticides). The second is about removing subsidies to farmers that use any kind of pesticide, or regularly use antibiotics on their livestock, etc. I feel like they are quite dra…

What is the sentiment about this vote within you and your group of friends/family? As I pass by Swiss countryside I see a lot of farmers claiming they will vote 2xNO as it presumably kills their business but I have a hard time believing that. Is there a swiss website where I can see current general sentiment regarding this initiatives?

Among friends and family, it's mainly 2× yes. You see a lot of banners in the cities for the initiative, but I don't know how good an indicator that is (political banners seem to have boomed in the last 3 years: each campaign now has its own that people rush to hang on their balconies, etc). As you said, in the countryside, you almost only ever see the 2× no ads.

I don't really know how to probe for the general sentiment: you can look at what the different political parties recommend on their websites (that's my usual lazy voting strategy: if the green, socialists and far left agree on a choice, I'll usually go with it), look for polls and/or read the press (probably swissinfo.ch is a good starting point?). Typically in this case, the socialists and green agree on the 2×yes, and since the socialists are pretty tame, I guess it's a good indicator that I can safely vote that.

EDIT: Correction, the tendency among my entourage might be tilting to a "no" to the drinking water initiative!

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#140

Post by tomp »

Apanatshka wrote: post #137
BelenusMordred wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel like they are quite drastic initiatives To me the greatest thing about Switzerland's direct democracy is that society gets the opportunity to make mistakes and learn from them with a very quick turnaround. If it really is a bad thing or has unintended consequences, the people will revert it back soon enough. I doubt that is the case, but time will tell. The problem with modern 2-party systems in the West is…

An important and sometimes forgotten thing about democracy is that it isn't as simple as the majority rules. It's the majority rules while taking minorities into account. In a well functioning representational democracy this is kept in mind my career politicians. In a hybrid between representational and direct like in Switzerland, the population can overrule and just go with majority rule. For example, the Swiss pens…

No, the Swiss & EU are right in this case.

Any form of retirement works the same - young people working to serve the old. How you finance it is a different question - but clearly increasing taxes & lowering pensions is just one way of the system breaking down. Another way is, everybody saving while working, not having kids, then spending when retired (results in market crashes & massive inflation).

The original problem is not having kids. The “direct transfer” system simply keeps incentives more aligned.

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