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Pesticides are killing the world's soils

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#81

Post by Ovah »

rosetremiere wrote: post #44

In Switzerland, we're soon going to vote on two initiatives ¹² aiming at reducing pesticide use. The first is essentially about forbidding the use of all artificial pesticides by 2031 (also importation of food that was produced abroad using pesticides). The second is about removing subsidies to farmers that use any kind of pesticide, or regularly use antibiotics on their livestock, etc. I feel like they are quite dra…

> The second is about removing subsidies to farmers that use any kind of pesticide, or regularly use antibiotics on their livestock, etc.

Anecdotally through medical school I've heard that there is evidence that antibiotic overuse in livestock, contrary to intuition, has no correlation with antibiotic resistance of human pathogens.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#82

Post by agumonkey »

rmason wrote: post #28

I've watched the entire cycle in the past thirty years as a former agronomist. We were able to genetically modify plants so they generated natural pesticides as a defense against insects. This allowed us to stop spraying thousands of tons of less insecticides. But the very people complaining about spraying chemicals rejected these new enhanced plants saying they weren't 'natural'. We have been breeding plants to do t…

I've read this argument since forever yet I still have a small issue about GMO because, it seems to me that, at that level, potential negative mutations can happen a lot more than the old way. It's a bit like saying we've been using sun light to heat ourselves, and it's nuclear so why worry about radioactive uranium.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#84

Post by mikehotel »

timeinput wrote: post #12

Does anyone have sources for suggestions about what we should do? I read these articles, and worry, and wonder what can I do. It's not clear to me that buying organic mono-cropped bananas at the mega mart is in anyway better or worse than buying non-organic mono-cropped bananas. I'd really like to just build up some more understanding on what I can do in my daily life to make things not worse.

Find and support local farmers that participate in the international 4 per 1000 initiative. https://www.4p1000.org/

Individually, try to compost and grow food plants if possible. Choose to buy natural food rather than processed food that relies on federal subsidies. Explore less common foods instead of bananas. :) Visit a local ethnic grocery and ask for suggestions.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#85

Post by varajelle »

rlt wrote: post #79
andy_ppp wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is awesome, under what conditions would Brexit be a) possible and b) reversed in the Swiss model?

Switzerland would have to be part of the EU, for one.

Assuming the UK was using the Swiss model.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#86

Post by smhost »

sampo wrote: post #71
hinkley wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think plants that produce pesticides are not an environmental problem of their own? Bees are dying from neonics getting into the pollen. You willing to bet the biosphere that you’re right, and nothing bad will happen?

> Why do you think plants that produce pesticides are not an environmental problem of their own? All plants that, in the nature, tend to get eaten by insects, naturally produce pesticides against their pests. Humans have bred super-edible, non-pesticide plants for cultivation, and insects are happy to attack these. Now we are bringing back into crop plants some of the natural defenses that wild plants have always had…

insect populations are declining rapidly and are also in need of protection. we're probably going to have to start eating bugs for survival when all the animals are dead, since bugs are one of the most efficient sources of protein, so i'd personally be wary of telling the bugs to fuck off just so we can save the crops.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#87

Post by andrei_says_ »

rosetremiere wrote: post #44

In Switzerland, we're soon going to vote on two initiatives ¹² aiming at reducing pesticide use. The first is essentially about forbidding the use of all artificial pesticides by 2031 (also importation of food that was produced abroad using pesticides). The second is about removing subsidies to farmers that use any kind of pesticide, or regularly use antibiotics on their livestock, etc. I feel like they are quite dra…

One could say that the initiative to subsidize farmers who use highly toxic chemicals and unsustainable practices resulting in depletion and eventual destruction of soil is also drastic.

As in paying money to destroy the soil and help someone profit a bit extra in the process is maybe not the best investment of people’s taxes.

Of course, it took us some time to start paying attention to the externalities. But now that we do let’s correct course.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#88

Post by Ma8ee »

londons_explore wrote: post #54
hinkley wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think plants that produce pesticides are not an environmental problem of their own? Bees are dying from neonics getting into the pollen. You willing to bet the biosphere that you’re right, and nothing bad will happen?

I'm willing to bet it's less bad than the status quo. Sure, bad things will happen with a few GM crops, but worse things will probably happen from existing non-GM farming practices. I think most experts would also agree with that assesment.

That is a false dichotomy. It is perfectly possible to get good yields with farming practices that use neither pesticides nor GM.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#89

Post by smhost »

FooHentai wrote: post #76
smhost wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"we shouldn't mess with nature" is also a naturalistic fallacy, fyi

No it isn't. While the naturalistic fallacy is the belief that natural = preferable, and that does sit very close to 'don't mess with nature', so too does the Precautionary Principle, and I would argue that sits supreme. We can argue about the degree of overlap of course, but it's not clear cut. I believe our scientific understanding in this area is at best partial, and so minimal interference only where strong justi…

yes it is. "we shouldn't mess with nature" and "we should be cautious when we are messing with nature" are two completely different things.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#90

Post by mercacona »

varajelle wrote: post #36
rmason wrote: post #28

I've watched the entire cycle in the past thirty years as a former agronomist. We were able to genetically modify plants so they generated natural pesticides as a defense against insects. This allowed us to stop spraying thousands of tons of less insecticides. But the very people complaining about spraying chemicals rejected these new enhanced plants saying they weren't 'natural'. We have been breeding plants to do t…

The so called organic food has little to do with environment preservation. One can use pesticides in organic farming. They just have to be "natural". But I wonder if these so called natural pesticides are any less dangerous. Also by requiring more soil to grow this isn't sustainable to feed the human population. Organic food is for a bunch of people scared of modern technology. Some usually take alternative medicine…

I don’t know how it works everywhere, but in EU, buying organic means buying “regulated and supervised crops”. Organic, here, it’s more expensive mainly because your production needs to be accounted.

Tech side, it’s as “modern” as the non-organic farming; but just regulated and controlled. Most of the non-organic crops in my country are just not at all supervised and uneducated farmers that constantly commit ecological harm because the more x I put in the field the better it should work.

So, I prefer to pay a little more to eat a fruit produced with some sciences and technicians involved in the production.

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