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Pesticides are killing the world's soils

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#71

Post by sampo »

hinkley wrote: post #42
rmason wrote: post #28

I've watched the entire cycle in the past thirty years as a former agronomist. We were able to genetically modify plants so they generated natural pesticides as a defense against insects. This allowed us to stop spraying thousands of tons of less insecticides. But the very people complaining about spraying chemicals rejected these new enhanced plants saying they weren't 'natural'. We have been breeding plants to do t…

Why do you think plants that produce pesticides are not an environmental problem of their own? Bees are dying from neonics getting into the pollen. You willing to bet the biosphere that you’re right, and nothing bad will happen?

> Why do you think plants that produce pesticides are not an environmental problem of their own?

All plants that, in the nature, tend to get eaten by insects, naturally produce pesticides against their pests. Humans have bred super-edible, non-pesticide plants for cultivation, and insects are happy to attack these. Now we are bringing back into crop plants some of the natural defenses that wild plants have always had against the insects.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#72

Post by andy_ppp »

BelenusMordred wrote: post #70
rosetremiere wrote: post #44

In Switzerland, we're soon going to vote on two initiatives ¹² aiming at reducing pesticide use. The first is essentially about forbidding the use of all artificial pesticides by 2031 (also importation of food that was produced abroad using pesticides). The second is about removing subsidies to farmers that use any kind of pesticide, or regularly use antibiotics on their livestock, etc. I feel like they are quite dra…

> I feel like they are quite drastic initiatives To me the greatest thing about Switzerland's direct democracy is that society gets the opportunity to make mistakes and learn from them with a very quick turnaround. If it really is a bad thing or has unintended consequences, the people will revert it back soon enough. I doubt that is the case, but time will tell. The problem with modern 2-party systems in the West is…

This is awesome, under what conditions would Brexit be a) possible and b) reversed in the Swiss model?

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#73

Post by nerdbaggy »

cm2012 wrote: post #53

The much demonized Roundup actually greatly reduces pesticide volume needed compared to older pesticides. Save the environment, love Monsanto.

Glyphosate 100% has an affect on the soil creatures. If you read the papers that aren’t Monsanto/Bayer propaganda a picture starts to form.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#74

Post by puchatek »

londons_explore wrote: post #57
rmason wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt) is a naturally occurring bacterium in the soil that produces proteins specifically active against certain insects. This is the exact same insecticide used by certified organic growers. Plant breeders have just engineered the plants to produce it in their leaves, not in the corn itself. For thirty years objections have been raised, scientific research has been done disproving the objections…

There are other political reasons for the ban... Do you want your whole food supply dependant on licensing from another nation who is an ally today, but could use this as a bargaining chip to "do as we say or we'll stop licensing you corn and destroy your agriculture industry".

If this was the only driver then the logical response wouldn't be a ban but rather more r&d spending to develop European alternatives.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#75

Post by [deleted] »

sampo wrote: post #64

This is a skillfully written piece to raise anger. But if you look closely, there are some signs: This piece refers to a study [1]. As they mention, this Scientific American piece is written by 2 of the 5 authors of the study. 4 out of 5 of the study authors don't work in a conventional academic institution, but in nature conservation non-profits [2, 3]. The study [1] is titled "A Hazard Assessment". If you know the…

[deleted]

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#76

Post by FooHentai »

smhost wrote: post #50
selcuka wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We were able to genetically modify plants so they generated natural pesticides as a defense against insects. Isn't this the good old "naturalistic fallacy" though? Would you eat a poisonous mushroom because the poison is "natural"? You can at least wash some pesticides off. I'm not a biologist but I'm sure there is a difference between crossing different varieties of peas versus introducing a non-pea (or maybe non-…

"we shouldn't mess with nature" is also a naturalistic fallacy, fyi

No it isn't. While the naturalistic fallacy is the belief that natural = preferable, and that does sit very close to 'don't mess with nature', so too does the Precautionary Principle, and I would argue that sits supreme.

We can argue about the degree of overlap of course, but it's not clear cut. I believe our scientific understanding in this area is at best partial, and so minimal interference only where strong justification exists is preferable.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#77

Post by fogihujy »

Clewza313 wrote: post #60
londons_explore wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are other political reasons for the ban... Do you want your whole food supply dependant on licensing from another nation who is an ally today, but could use this as a bargaining chip to "do as we say or we'll stop licensing you corn and destroy your agriculture industry".

Sure, but licensing/patents are entirely separate from the environment benefits here.

They're definitely separate issues, but decision makers still need to take both into account.

"It's better for the environment" is a poor excuse when you have angry farmers yelling outside one door, and poor hungry people outside the other.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#78

Post by gravelc »

rmason wrote: post #28

I've watched the entire cycle in the past thirty years as a former agronomist. We were able to genetically modify plants so they generated natural pesticides as a defense against insects. This allowed us to stop spraying thousands of tons of less insecticides. But the very people complaining about spraying chemicals rejected these new enhanced plants saying they weren't 'natural'. We have been breeding plants to do t…

The other downside with the GM approach that people rarely mention is that there are no transformation protocols for many crops.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#79

Post by rlt »

andy_ppp wrote: post #72
BelenusMordred wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel like they are quite drastic initiatives To me the greatest thing about Switzerland's direct democracy is that society gets the opportunity to make mistakes and learn from them with a very quick turnaround. If it really is a bad thing or has unintended consequences, the people will revert it back soon enough. I doubt that is the case, but time will tell. The problem with modern 2-party systems in the West is…

This is awesome, under what conditions would Brexit be a) possible and b) reversed in the Swiss model?

Switzerland would have to be part of the EU, for one.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#80

Post by brainzap »

rosetremiere wrote: post #44

In Switzerland, we're soon going to vote on two initiatives ¹² aiming at reducing pesticide use. The first is essentially about forbidding the use of all artificial pesticides by 2031 (also importation of food that was produced abroad using pesticides). The second is about removing subsidies to farmers that use any kind of pesticide, or regularly use antibiotics on their livestock, etc. I feel like they are quite dra…

The initiative includes that farmers have to produce the fodder themself. wtf?
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